Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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Soolsma
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Soolsma » Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:22 pm

The Last Jedi is one of my favorite Star Wars films and I am sure happy that Rian Johnson is going to be making his own Star Wars trilogy. From indulging myself into spoilers and leaks for months already leading up to the release of the final chapter, I have learned that the Rise of Skywalker takes the mirroring of the plot devices and thematics of the originals to an extreme, even more so than TFA did.

The good thing about the way that I view Star Wars is just that I never have felt the need to expect much of it in terms of quality storytelling. To me, it's all about the flashing lightsabers, quirky droids, cheesy humor, the occasional wilhelm scream, exotic space settings and the mysterious ways of the force. Oh and of course the incredible amount of money that's pumped into the production of these films, it sure shows off, even more so in the newest trilogy.

Which is exactly why I am going to watch the Rise of Skywalker in a 4d cinema next Sunday. Wind, rain, smells, moving chairs, I don't know what else. I'll be sure to let you guys know about that experience.

Oh and here's DL's RotJ
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:37 am

Soolsma wrote:.

The good thing about the way that I view Star Wars is just that I never have felt the need to expect much of it in terms of quality storytelling. To me, it's all about the flashing lightsabers, quirky droids, cheesy humor, the occasional wilhelm scream, exotic space settings and the mysterious ways of the force. Oh and of course the incredible amount of money that's pumped into the production of these films, it sure shows off, even more so in the newest trilogy.


Yeah, that perfectly encapsulates how I feel about the series post-Empire. For a series that’s venerated for its mythology, it all feels pretty half-baked to me. It’s just a jumble of repurposed storytelling cliches with nonsense-word names attached to make them seem new. “Good vs. evil” just isn’t that interesting a concept when the real world is so much more complex than that. Johnson tried to add a little depth/nuance with Luke’s questioning of the Jedi order in The Last Jedi, but that immediately fell by the wayside, killed by a fan-service Yoda cameo. Even the Luke material in Last Jedi, which I enjoyed largely for Hamill’s terrific performance (even though he disagreed with the direction of the character, he gave maybe the best performance of his career), even that was one of the oldest tropes in the book (the plucky young hero has to convince the crusty, reclusive old hand to come out of retirement for one last round-up).

Look, I get that the world of storytelling ideas is finite, and every story borrows from myths and older stories, etc. But Star Wars post-Empire feels to me particularly like it’s just going through the motions to get us to the next big flashy space chase or comedic quip or manufactured emotional moment given unearned weight thanks to the great John Williams.

Sorry to be such a debbie downer! I actually have enjoyed the last two films more than what I wrote above indicates, but in retrospect they just have so little substance IMO. Again, the Marvel movies, which people routinely criticize for being assembly-line, honestly feel like the writers and directors work much harder on telling a story that’s at least a little innovative and surprising. And the push-and-pull between Abrams and Johnson is particularly frustrating. I probably won’t see Rise of the Skywalker until next weekend, but everything I’m reading indicates that the sequel trilogy essentially cancels itself out because Johnson tried to go one direction and Abrams just overrode all that in the new film. It’s baffling, and makes the whole thing kind of pointless in retrospect.

Also interesting to note that Last Jedi, which at least tried to break the mold in some interesting ways. is the only one the three that Lucas has said anything positive about publicly. He openly bad-mouthed Force Awakens for being unoriginal (and then had to apologize because his contract with Disney doesn’t allow him to disparage the films), and he notably skipped the premiere of the new film, probably the strongest statement he could make in view of his contract.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby mtwentz » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:52 am

So I finally saw The Last Jedi in its entirety last night, (it is currently included with Netflix subscription).

Boy was it a slog to get through, though it finally did start to click with me at the end, a little.

I have just seen too many starship battles, too many laser sword (light saber) fights. As others have noted, this one did try to do some different stuff as well, which did make it a bit more interesting in parts, but it’s sheer length guaranteed I’ll never watch it again.

I still am curious how Rise of Skywalker undoes much if The Last Jedi....but I will probably end up reading the spoilers in the Internet. Don’t think I can make it through another Star Wars movie.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby mtwentz » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:34 am

So I went ahead and spoiled Rise of Skywalker and yes, it seems pretty clear major subversive points from The Last Jedi were ‘unsubverted’ based on popular demand. Which is highly inauthentic from an artistic standpoint.

But, from a business standpoint, I can’t really fault Disney for what was done This is a major cash cow for them. And anything that threatens those future income streams would need to be revised. I’m not going to put this all in JJ...I’m going to guess Iger had a say in this too.

And one could argue this kind of stuff is done in sequels all the time. I think what makes this different is that the filmmakers all but admitted why they changed it. And that rubs a lot of critics the wrong way.

But I’ll hold back my own criticism of naked pandering to fans until after Twin Peaks Season 4. Maybe Lynch will do something similar; maybe he’s heard the disappointed fans in this and other forums and will try to unsubvert Season 3?
Last edited by mtwentz on Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Kilmoore » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:37 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:everything I’m reading indicates that the sequel trilogy essentially cancels itself out because Johnson tried to go one direction and Abrams just overrode all that in the new film. It’s baffling, and makes the whole thing kind of pointless in retrospect.

Well, it's more like Abrams went one way in TFA, Johnson overrode that in TLJ and Abrams restored the direction. It was Johnson who sidetracked the whole thing, but that's just a symptom of the fact that Disney decided to episodes 7-9 without any idea of the story, thinking it'll sell anyway. Without a clear arc over the three movies, it's not a trilogy but three separate films.

I found The Last Jedi to be stupid and pointless. It threw away what had been established, completely misunderstood Star Wars lore and what it introduced made no sense. It didn't drive the characters forward, and made what was left of the story a mess. I'm not even going to bother drawing the analogy here...
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Agent Earle » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:11 am

mtwentz wrote:
But I’ll hold back my own criticism of naked pandering to fans until after Twin Peaks Season 4. Maybe Lynch will do something similar; maybe he’s heard the disappointed fans in this and other forums and will try to unsubvert Season 3?


LOL! You're a funny guy :D
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:57 am

Kilmoore wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:everything I’m reading indicates that the sequel trilogy essentially cancels itself out because Johnson tried to go one direction and Abrams just overrode all that in the new film. It’s baffling, and makes the whole thing kind of pointless in retrospect.

Well, it's more like Abrams went one way in TFA, Johnson overrode that in TLJ and Abrams restored the direction. It was Johnson who sidetracked the whole thing, but that's just a symptom of the fact that Disney decided to episodes 7-9 without any idea of the story, thinking it'll sell anyway. Without a clear arc over the three movies, it's not a trilogy but three separate films.

I found The Last Jedi to be stupid and pointless. It threw away what had been established, completely misunderstood Star Wars lore and what it introduced made no sense. It didn't drive the characters forward, and made what was left of the story a mess. I'm not even going to bother drawing the analogy here...


Respectfully disagree.
Spoiler:
I thought TLJ at least tried to do something interesting with the “anyone can be a Jedi” thing. If J.J. and Disney planned to go the Palpatine route the whole time, why did they not tell Johnson? Instead, they gave him free reign to do the exact opposite, just so Abrams could sloppily “correct” it in the next film? It’s not like J.J. was uninvolved in TLJ; he spoke to Johnson at the start of production, and he was an exec producer. I’m sure Kathleen Kennedy knew the long term plans too, maybe they even came from her. I think Johnson’s approach to Rey’s backstory was stronger, personally. But regardless of which approach you prefer, the handling of this aspect of the trilogy was supremely sloppy, through no fault of Johnson’s.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby LateReg » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:26 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Kilmoore wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:everything I’m reading indicates that the sequel trilogy essentially cancels itself out because Johnson tried to go one direction and Abrams just overrode all that in the new film. It’s baffling, and makes the whole thing kind of pointless in retrospect.

Well, it's more like Abrams went one way in TFA, Johnson overrode that in TLJ and Abrams restored the direction. It was Johnson who sidetracked the whole thing, but that's just a symptom of the fact that Disney decided to episodes 7-9 without any idea of the story, thinking it'll sell anyway. Without a clear arc over the three movies, it's not a trilogy but three separate films.

I found The Last Jedi to be stupid and pointless. It threw away what had been established, completely misunderstood Star Wars lore and what it introduced made no sense. It didn't drive the characters forward, and made what was left of the story a mess. I'm not even going to bother drawing the analogy here...


Respectfully disagree.
Spoiler:
I thought TLJ at least tried to do something interesting with the “anyone can be a Jedi” thing. If J.J. and Disney planned to go the Palpatine route the whole time, why did they not tell Johnson? Instead, they gave him free reign to do the exact opposite, just so Abrams could sloppily “correct” it in the next film? It’s not like J.J. was uninvolved in TLJ; he spoke to Johnson at the start of production, and he was an exec producer. I’m sure Kathleen Kennedy knew the long term plans too, maybe they even came from her. I think Johnson’s approach to Rey’s backstory was stronger, personally. But regardless of which approach you prefer, the handling of this aspect of the trilogy was supremely sloppy, through no fault of Johnson’s.


Kilmoore didn't have to draw the analogy for me...when I saw them posting this I found it totally consistent with their other posts and I immediately understood! It makes sense to me that Kilmoore would dislike both The Last Jedi and The Return.

I cannot understand the notion that Johnson didn't understand the lore. I think he's the one who perfectly understood it! Johnson's knowledge of the Force, the Jedi and of Luke makes perfect sense to me and seems much deeper than that of the fans who have criticized the film, imo. And I say that as lifelong fan of the films, who grew up with them, etc. Johnson's approach is nuanced rather than binary, human rather than heroic. And in the end, the arc is complete.

And by the way, Rise of Skywalker is an absolute mess of a movie. Critics don't like it not just because its tepid and fan servicey, but because it's a damn mess, in large part because of these things. Reading the spoilers for it will point out the backsliding nature of its narrative decisions, but even those that feel like they should hit hard within the movie don't because the movie is so rushed - basically packing a revamped trilogy's worth of story into one movie - that nothing has the proper space to take hold. But where I agree with Kilmoore is in the objective truth that Disney et al seemingly never had a plan laid out for all three movies, which I find ridiculous as well as hard to believe, but it's true.

And I fully blame Disney, and future proofing their income streams is no excuse for how this movie turned out. Abrams thoroughly praised The Last Jedi upon release, and even said he wished to take more risks like Johnson did. Something obviously changed. What a joke. It's this dangerous mix of Disney's control of everything, their commercial focus on the bottom line and attempting to please everyone rather than make something with some balls combined with the toxicity of entitled fans having too much of a voice on social media and somehow being taken seriously. And in Disney's quest to dominate as many screens as possible with the pointless breaking of theater count records, they're also ruining the communal experience that is supposed to accompany seeing a major film like this one. Because it was playing every 15 minutes, my 7 PM Thursday night screening was half full, and I might as well have been watching Bumblebee based on the lack of excitement that theater count strategy provided. While I understand that The Last Jedi already dimmed a lot of fans' excitement, the worst possible thing that Disney could have done was what they did here - trying so hard to please everyone that they forgot to make an actual movie - and it's an abject lesson in the faults of their current model of franchise moviemaking. I can only hope that between the diminishing returns and lower than expected grosses of oversaturated properties like Star Wars and The Lion King that Disney is rethinking, at least a little bit, how they're doing business. I don't care how big the franchise is. You're still making art, and it doesn't have to be this way. Shit, the bigger the franchise the more risk you should be able to take because as long as you still make a good movie, the crowd will still be there. Yeah, if only.

Sorry if I come off excessively ranty here. I truly don't care about Star Wars at this point, or any franchise, really; I only care if the film is good, full stop. But I have it out for DIsney in a big way, and this failure in the handling and completion of this particular trilogy is simply mind-boggling to me in a way that spells out just how wrongheaded their model and motives are.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:48 pm

The funny thing about all the hatred toward Luke’s arc in TLJ is that it’s one of the few things Disney kept from Lucas’s planned sequel trilogy! That’s always been the plan for Luke, for as long as there was a plan.

Lucas’s trilogy also would have apparently taken place partly in the midichlorian realm. Which, as much as we all hate midichlorians, sounds potentially trippy and exciting.

For all the ways that Rise of the Skywalker seems to have been misguidedly crafted to appeal to online troll culture, perhaps the most unforgivable is the way Rose’s role was minimized. Maybe it was unintentional and just the way the story went, but given all the bullying that poor actress took, this is something they should have been VERY conscious of. Not a good look.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby eyeboogers » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:08 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:For all the ways that Rise of the Skywalker seems to have been misguidedly crafted to appeal to online troll culture, perhaps the most unforgivable is the way Rose’s role was minimized. Maybe it was unintentional and just the way the story went, but given all the bullying that poor actress took, this is something they should have been VERY conscious of. Not a good look.


Agreed, it would almost have been better to omit the character entirely, but to have her pop up peripherally without anyone caring much about her wellbeing felt like an insult. Related to the hatred of the Finn-Rose romantic relationship, or even Finn-Rey as hinted in the Abrams' flms, I thought it felt really odd and backwards that Disney suddenly brought in a completely redundant girlfriend character for Finn of the same skin color.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby LateReg » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:04 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:For all the ways that Rise of the Skywalker seems to have been misguidedly crafted to appeal to online troll culture, perhaps the most unforgivable is the way Rose’s role was minimized. Maybe it was unintentional and just the way the story went, but given all the bullying that poor actress took, this is something they should have been VERY conscious of. Not a good look.


Agreed, it would almost have been better to omit the character entirely, but to have her pop up peripherally without anyone caring much about her wellbeing felt like an insult. Related to the hatred of the Finn-Rose romantic relationship, or even Finn-Rey as hinted in the Abrams' flms, I thought it felt really odd and backwards that Disney suddenly brought in a completely redundant girlfriend character for Finn of the same skin color.


Yes. I don't ever prioritize inclusion, representation, diversity, etc. as necessary to any work of art, but even to me the Rose element in RoS was just bizarre. Especially coming from Disney, who has been prioritizing such things, and should have stood their ground and honored the actress as well as the character! So weird! And poor Finn...he got bounced around between so many subolots that were either unnecessary or never fully materialized. At separate times it seemed as though he might have been boyfriend material for Rey, Rose or Poe! And what did he want to tell Rey in this, anyway?

And yes, Luke's arc was in Lucas's treatment that he handed over to Disney. I believe he wanted it in Episode 7, but Abrams left it out, leaving it to Johnson to film. The Last Jedi may have some issues, but for me they're mostly in some of the modern sensibilities, such as the few occasions of intrusive, modern-sounding humor that is part and parcel of the modern blockbuster. Philosophically, the thing is sound. Even so, arguments can be had, but the one thing I would defend until my death is the treatment and understanding of Luke. That is near-perfection to me.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:31 pm

The Finn/Rose/Benicio del Toro casino subplot in TLJ felt like a B-plot from a Futurama episode. That to me was one of Johnson’s weirder choices, like he just needed to figure out something for Finn to do and went with the first pitch.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby eyeboogers » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:34 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:The Finn/Rose/Benicio del Toro casino subplot in TLJ felt like a B-plot from a Futurama episode. That to me was one of Johnson’s weirder choices, like he just needed to figure out something for Finn to do and went with the first pitch.


The only thing such a scenario might have been good for would be to re-introduce Lando Calrissian in his prefered environment, if they had an actual use for the character which they clearly didn't in Rise.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:36 pm

I also felt Laura Dern was wasted in TLJ. I have my share of gripes with the film in terms of pacing and tone, but the Luke material and the “your parents were no one” beats are among the strongest stuff in the new trilogy.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:41 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:The Finn/Rose/Benicio del Toro casino subplot in TLJ felt like a B-plot from a Futurama episode. That to me was one of Johnson’s weirder choices, like he just needed to figure out something for Finn to do and went with the first pitch.


The only thing such a scenario might have been good for would be to re-introduce Lando Calrissian in his prefered environment, if they had an actual use for the character which they clearly didn't in Rise.


Or in Solo, where he was weirdly sidelined repeatedly. Donald Glover as Lando was the only reason I had any interest in that movie, and they wasted him too.

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