Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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ManBehindWinkies
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby ManBehindWinkies » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:39 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
ManBehindWinkies wrote:A new murder/new mystery format may have worked with Twin Peaks/quote]

There was a new murder mystery, in the first episode of TPTR the decapitated head of a woman was found on top of the body of a much larger and older man. They kept that part of the formula (this time inspired by The Black Dahlia rather than the death if Marilyn) but remixed it plenty.


I don't know if that served the same function as Laura's murder. Did they ever even properly solved it? I guess the Woodsmen did it?
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby eyeboogers » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:51 pm

ManBehindWinkies wrote:I don't know if that served the same function as Laura's murder. Did they ever even properly solved it? I guess the Woodsmen did it?


It pretty much did, that occurrence unraveled the threads that led all the different groupings to Mr.C/The Sheriff's station. And the murder was solved mainly through the help of Mayor Briggs leaving the wedding ring as evidence and William Hastings' Bermuda confession. And yes, The Woodsmen and Mr.C were responsible.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby ManBehindWinkies » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:22 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
It pretty much did, that occurrence unraveled the threads that led all the different groupings to Mr.C/The Sheriff's station. And the murder was solved mainly through the help of Mayor Briggs leaving the wedding ring as evidence and William Hastings' Bermuda confession. And yes, The Woodsmen and Mr.C were responsible.


Relevant to the discussion at hand, are you trying to argue that TP S3 did in fact follow a formula that was found in S1 and S2, and it was not an example of taking a story in a completely new direction? If that's what you are saying you will need to elaborate with more examples. I don't think "Who Killed Ruth Davenport?" was what S3 was framed around the way "Who killed Laura Palmer" framed S1 and the first 1/3 of s2.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby LateReg » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:27 pm

ManBehindWinkies wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
ManBehindWinkies wrote:A new murder/new mystery format may have worked with Twin Peaks/quote]

There was a new murder mystery, in the first episode of TPTR the decapitated head of a woman was found on top of the body of a much larger and older man. They kept that part of the formula (this time inspired by The Black Dahlia rather than the death if Marilyn) but remixed it plenty.


I don't know if that served the same function as Laura's murder. Did they ever even properly solved it? I guess the Woodsmen did it?


Right. That may have been the jumping off point, but only to subvert expectations. It was so thoroughly subversive that I wouldn't actually consider it to be following the formula whatsoever, with even the function operating on an entirely different level. That said, if one only watched the first two episodes, I suppose one could note the similarity in formula.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Audrey Horne » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:07 pm

I’ve got opinions, I’ve got opinions! Stop the presses, er the stop the interwebs.

Got the two camp thing. Totally get that.
Get the wiataminute this isn’t the story I wanted, or where are the people I wanted.

But I’d like to think all my years of playwriting, scene study, watching turner classic movies, working with different directors, reading and studying the greats from the past thousand years is can I be objective to what is working in a piece even if it’s in a story or someone’s work that I’m not interested in.

One of my problems with both The Return and SW, the Next Generation are their structures. And then breaking it down, their scenes composed within that structure.

The James Bond example is a great one. Because essentially it is the same movies made again and again. The same thing with Friday the 13th. The genre to me is irrelevant. Why are some Bond films considered great and some not when they are following the same formula more or less? To me it’s the structure and composition of scene. And the of course style and chemistry within that structure and editing.

I’m of the belief all successful scenes are the same whether it is Debra Winger and Shirley MacClaine sitting on a bed as mother and daughter in Terms of Endearment, or Steve McQueen racing in his car tailing the bad guys in Bullit. They have the same beats within the scene. A beginning, a middle and an end. Within that scene a change happens that goes beyond just exposition, or else cut the scene. And it is always character driven.

In this newest SW’s movie there are a lot of scenes, a lot of information, a lot of chases, but they’re not composed, just thrown at us. The rhythm in TP Return is vastly different but I have the same problem with it. Although with the new SW I think it is messy in editing, whereas the Return I don’t. Return I think is a structure and script problem. Obviously, I think Lynch is a master director.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby AXX°N N. » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:38 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:But I’d like to think all my years of playwriting, scene study, watching turner classic movies, working with different directors, reading and studying the greats from the past thousand years is can I be objective to what is working in a piece even if it’s in a story or someone’s work that I’m not interested in.

Sure, but have you ever read Ulysses? Gravity's Rainbow? The latter especially has some similarities to the Return. Stepping aside from the suggestion that there are absolute rules in narrative, you have to at least acknowledge that the sense of the abrupt or the unhinged aren't always accidental, nor that they should be disallowed from existing structurally. If a narrative is about the chaos of modern life, why does it have to be slow-burning and communicate clearly? This is the domain of what makes the experimental more effective, and rhapsodize on themes otherwise unable to be articulated. If a loose structure marries with the theme, it can convey an albeit abstract emotion better than something straight-laced. Naked Lunch comes to mind. For film, something like Tarkovsky's The Mirror. And seeing as much of the Return has to do with aging and the mystic, I for one thought its structure worked wonders. You don't accidentally cast hundreds of roles, some of which appear in only one scene, because you made a narrative mistake so egregious that by the 200th casting you forgot to stop yourself at the 100th! :o
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Audrey Horne » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:57 pm

Yes, I did. And I ran out of steam in my post.

And agree with you. And am too tired and lazy right now to work my brain that those that you sited have a structure and scene to them in their own way. Like Lynch I think they mastered the fundamentals enough to deviate from them and always have the principles under their belt.

I think for me the problem though is the medium... the medium being here a weekly serialized television show with characters I’m invested in. Scene by scene, or part by part in The Return they exist more in a vacuum like an art installation. And I can rationalize it but my heart is not hooked. Sure I can appreciate the artistry in a scene where Ed and Norma get together, but in its structure I’m not having as much of a payoff if it’s not established weeks earlier that Ed is still married to Nadine instead of being told just the scene prior. The medium of the serial dictates the pulling of the strings.

But it’s each their own. I won’t take away what someone loves or tell them they shouldn’t love it. It’s more why it didn’t work for me. I feel it needed a more boring conventional story to be its spine so Lynch could have a base to deviate from.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby AXX°N N. » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:26 pm

I can see where you're coming from, for sure. I just find it restrictive to demand all art have conventional characterization. There's tons of examples where there could be said to be NO characterization in a narrative, though I think that's using the wrong language, to say something has no characterization because it lacks dialogue, or scenes that follow a three act structure. Like The Color of Pomegranites, a film I didn't even like, where it's pretty much a museum expo on film with a very, very loose narrative progression, mostly showing a character as he ages. I don't think that's automatically in error, regardless of what medium it's in. Different ideas command different methods of how human beings should be presented to the audience. Perhaps you're onto something with it being out of whack with the idea of serialization, but there are plenty of literary works that were serialized and 'devoid' of traditional characterization, maybe the most extreme example beig Finnegans Wake. I don't have TV examples though, but there's nothing that inherently seems flagrantly defying the possibilities of the medium to operate outside the bounds of clarity.

With the case of Nadine, come to speak of it, I feel that the lack of clarity is intentional. A lot of the Return feels 'in media res.' We see characters and we begin to wonder if the old situations they're in still are going on or not. When I saw the scenes between Norma and the guy trying to get her to sell her diner, I had no idea what the relation was. Was he a boyfriend? Were her and Ed married? It made me pay close attention to see if the context would ever drop. A very good example that I thought worked well was the moment it's revealed that Shelly isn't with Bobby anymore. When they're having the family meeting, and Red pops in, and Shelly goes and kisses him. I had NO idea what was happening. I thought Red had hypnotized her, or that she was being weirdly open cheating on Bobby... but as it went on, the 'feel' of the truth set in. But until I decided, well, they must have gotten a separation, I felt very 'together' with Bobby and Becky, who seemed equally caught off guard... I thought it was an effective use of witholding information, and presenting information without directly and clearly offering it to the audience. And, despite the lack of explanation, did actually, at least for me, further my empathizing with characters.

I don't mean to be disagreeable for the sake of it though, you're totally entitled to your reading. I find disagreements about 'characterization' and how it should function an endlessly debatable topic.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Audrey Horne » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:53 pm

Sure totally.

And although this sounds so elitist, I am a champion for the artist and the work first. Or at least I’d like to think I am. I’m rooting for it to be good and me enjoying it. I want to enjoy work. And yes, I feel there are many out there who want to analyze it first. But I check my brain at the door and want to go on the emotional ride of any work,

And to be honest, I feel Lynch was lazy in this work. I think he can do better, I think it was too easy, and he has too many people that will say anything he does is brilliant. I don’t think he really explored anything he was setting up. I mean I think he worked really hard for sure, but if I were his friend, I would tell him, I think you can do better.

The same with this SW, but the more I’m reading the more it sounds like it went through so many reshoots, and dictated more by shareholders than having a story to tell.

And also I am of the belief that an artist DOES have a responsibility to his or her audience. Not a didatic one, but an explorative one. I don’t know where I’m going with that one, it’s just an instinct. Not that I want messagy or Hallmark resulotions.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby LateReg » Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:48 am

Audrey Horne wrote:
And to be honest, I feel Lynch was lazy in this work. I think he can do better, I think it was too easy, and he has too many people that will say anything he does is brilliant. I don’t think he really explored anything he was setting up. I mean I think he worked really hard for sure, but if I were his friend, I would tell him, I think you can do better.


I'm mostly following what you're saying, though I am fully in agreement with Axxon in that this work approaches characterization differently than most others, a huge part of that being its approach to a 25 years later narrative that is largely taking place offscreen; I find the loose and slow yet highly structured narrative form to be utterly unique, and in total synchronicity with the ideas within the work.

But regardless, what I quoted above I'd like a bit more explanation about. Because I think The Return offers some of the deepest explorations of any film/series of a number of themes, layered and intertwined in a very complex yet free-floating, intuitive manner. Saying that it doesn't or that Lynch should have tried harder strikes me more as a disagreement with how the story was told rather than an embrace of how the series works best to explore those themes. But the rub is that of course if you're not on board with the way Lynch went about it, you won't feel that way about its depth, regardless of how many theories you read from those who have expounded on how deep and interconnected the series may be, or regardless of how compelling the rhymes and patterns are that emerge within a scene by scene analysis. Because as you say, you like to feel the work more so than analyze it. And so do I. The difference being that I felt all this, which led me to analysis, whereas you don't feel it as much.

This is the rarity of Lynch and especially The Return: The only way to really take it in, regardless of its complexity, is to relax and let it wash over you so that everything its doing can be received. And in doing so you either feel it or you don't.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Hester Prynne » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:29 pm

Finally watched Rise of Skywalker and had prepped myself to be disappointed because of bad reviews, and I LOVED it. I’m scratching my head as to why many reviews were so critical.
I feel like some critics disdain anything that comes across as nostalgic in sequels regardless of quality. Instead of just letting go and experiencing the movie, they have to note how unoriginal everything is because - gasp - the storylines and characters draw on events and characters that were in the original run. Did they forget they were watching Star Wars? Was it a perfect movie - no. I wish they had decided on which direction they wanted to take the trilogy from the get go instead of dropping a rather big reveal and character return out of the blue in the final movie - that should have been built on from the beginning of TFA.

As far as The Return, which I really liked, but had some issues with, I think the anti nostalgia approach is why critics loved it so much, but TP is a very different creature from Star Wars and probably an easier work to attempt this in. There was also FWWM not long after TP which was dramatically different, so the stark difference between The Return and the original run should not have been a surprise.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:25 pm

Hester Prynne wrote:Finally watched Rise of Skywalker and had prepped myself to be disappointed because of bad reviews, and I LOVED it. I’m scratching my head as to why many reviews were so critical.
I feel like some critics disdain anything that comes across as nostalgic in sequels regardless of quality. Instead of just letting go and experiencing the movie, they have to note how unoriginal everything is because - gasp - the storylines and characters draw on events and characters that were in the original run. Did they forget they were watching Star Wars? Was it a perfect movie - no. I wish they had decided on which direction they wanted to take the trilogy from the get go instead of dropping a rather big reveal and character return out of the blue in the final movie - that should have been built on from the beginning of TFA.

As far as The Return, which I really liked, but had some issues with, I think the anti nostalgia approach is why critics loved it so much, but TP is a very different creature from Star Wars and probably an easier work to attempt this in. There was also FWWM not long after TP which was dramatically different, so the stark difference between The Return and the original run should not have been a surprise.


My biggest issue with Rise of the Skywalker was its not laying adequate groundwork for many of its storytelling choices. The most glaringly obvious issue is that literally no explanation is given for Palpatine to be alive, except that J.J. wanted to bring back an iconic villain. If you want to engage in nostalgia, fine, but you have to do at least a little basic work to justify your choices and have the world make some logical sense. The Chewbacca fake-out was another example of a storytelling decision that felt entirely motivated by a desire to manipulate the audience, with an insultingly minimal effort put in to actually make the twist seem even remotely feasible in retrospect. It’s like those old 1940s movie serials where you literally see a car fly off a cliff at the end of one week, and the next week the car manages to magically swerve back onto the road.

I’m a fan of most of J.J.’s work. I loved The Force Awakens when I first saw it, nostalgia-bait and all, considering it a fun breath of fresh air after the stodgy Lucas prequels. My issue with Rise of the Skywalker wasn’t that it was nostalgic, it was that its storytelling choices felt incredibly lazy.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Kilmoore » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:08 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote: My issue with Rise of the Skywalker wasn’t that it was nostalgic, it was that its storytelling choices felt incredibly lazy.

It all boils down to the fact that there was no plan for the trilogy beyond making films to get money. No one cared about the story, and thus The Last Jedi was allowed to derail everything set up in The Force Awakens without setting up anything in its stead. So Rise of the Skywalker had to do a setup and ending for the whole "trilogy", and as a result, it's a mess. The whole opening where Palpatine is found is just the clumsiest, amateurish storytelling I've ever seen on the big screen.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby TwinsPeak » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:48 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Hester Prynne wrote:Finally watched Rise of Skywalker and had prepped myself to be disappointed because of bad reviews, and I LOVED it. I’m scratching my head as to why many reviews were so critical.
I feel like some critics disdain anything that comes across as nostalgic in sequels regardless of quality. Instead of just letting go and experiencing the movie, they have to note how unoriginal everything is because - gasp - the storylines and characters draw on events and characters that were in the original run. Did they forget they were watching Star Wars? Was it a perfect movie - no. I wish they had decided on which direction they wanted to take the trilogy from the get go instead of dropping a rather big reveal and character return out of the blue in the final movie - that should have been built on from the beginning of TFA.

As far as The Return, which I really liked, but had some issues with, I think the anti nostalgia approach is why critics loved it so much, but TP is a very different creature from Star Wars and probably an easier work to attempt this in. There was also FWWM not long after TP which was dramatically different, so the stark difference between The Return and the original run should not have been a surprise.


My biggest issue with Rise of the Skywalker was its not laying adequate groundwork for many of its storytelling choices. The most glaringly obvious issue is that literally no explanation is given for Palpatine to be alive, except that J.J. wanted to bring back an iconic villain. If you want to engage in nostalgia, fine, but you have to do at least a little basic work to justify your choices and have the world make some logical sense. The Chewbacca fake-out was another example of a storytelling decision that felt entirely motivated by a desire to manipulate the audience, with an insultingly minimal effort put in to actually make the twist seem even remotely feasible in retrospect. It’s like those old 1940s movie serials where you literally see a car fly off a cliff at the end of one week, and the next week the car manages to magically swerve back onto the road.

I’m a fan of most of J.J.’s work. I loved The Force Awakens when I first saw it, nostalgia-bait and all, considering it a fun breath of fresh air after the stodgy Lucas prequels. My issue with Rise of the Skywalker wasn’t that it was nostalgic, it was that its storytelling choices felt incredibly lazy.



I haven't enjoyed any of the new Star Wars since Return of the Jedi except Rogue One. 6-9 being the worst 3. The Force Awakens is my least favourite of all of them. I agree with Hamill, J.J. ruined the Luke Skywalker character and ruined the story.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Hester Prynne » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:58 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:My biggest issue with Rise of the Skywalker was its not laying adequate groundwork for many of its storytelling choices. The most glaringly obvious issue is that literally no explanation is given for Palpatine to be alive, except that J.J. wanted to bring back an iconic villain. If you want to engage in nostalgia, fine, but you have to do at least a little basic work to justify your choices and have the world make some logical sense. The Chewbacca fake-out was another example of a storytelling decision that felt entirely motivated by a desire to manipulate the audience, with an insultingly minimal effort put in to actually make the twist seem even remotely feasible in retrospect. It’s like those old 1940s movie serials where you literally see a car fly off a cliff at the end of one week, and the next week the car manages to magically swerve back onto the road.

I’m a fan of most of J.J.’s work. I loved The Force Awakens when I first saw it, nostalgia-bait and all, considering it a fun breath of fresh air after the stodgy Lucas prequels. My issue with Rise of the Skywalker wasn’t that it was nostalgic, it was that its storytelling choices felt incredibly lazy.


I agree about the groundwork for some of the story choices. I think the last three SW movies mirror the issue the original TP had with different directors and the lack of a unifying vision - wish they had decided on the trajectory from the beginning. Yes, the Chewbacca thing didn’t fool me and I didn’t really buy it when I was watching - the same with C-3PO although I thought that was a great moment and wish they had let that scene last a little longer. I was still on board with everything - for whatever reason this movie seemed to strike the right balance between the old stories and the new, and I felt an emotional connection to the new characters much more than the previous two films. The tone seemed much more like one of the original three movies without feeling like it was a duplication of something I’d already seen before. I thought Ben and Rey’s final scene together was particularly touching, but I’m sure it wasn’t a hit with all fans.

I didn’t hate the Last Jedi, but didn’t love it. I think the difference between what Lynch and Frost did with the Return and what Rian Johnson did with TLJ is L and F had a story to tell and it took them to a place that seemed anti-nostalgic and a subversion of expectations. I don’t know that that was their intention. I think the story they wanted to tell just took them there. I feel like Johnson tried to do the opposite - he was trying too hard to subvert expectations and be strikingly different from other SW movies so much so that the story and characters became lost in it.

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