Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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eyeboogers
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby eyeboogers » Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:26 am

I disagree with you very much that TPTR focuses on "...new people". This is entirely a story that revolves around Dale Cooper and thematically Laura Palmer, Kyle having more screentime than anyone else. That is incomparable to how the original trilogy Star Wars characters were brought back for faux-legitimacy and only to kill them off as quickly as possible - it was clear no-one in the Lucasfilm office had any interest in any actor over 35 being on screen (unless as a villain).
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:51 am

eyeboogers wrote:I disagree with you very much that TPTR focuses on "...new people". This is entirely a story that revolves around Dale Cooper and thematically Laura Palmer, Kyle having more screentime than anyone else. That is incomparable to how the original trilogy Star Wars characters were brought back for faux-legitimacy and only to kill them off as quickly as possible - it was clear no-one in the Lucasfilm office had any interest in any actor over 35 being on screen (unless as a villain).


To be fair, think Luke’s role in TLJ is pretty substantial, and we would have seen a lot more of Leia in Episode IX if not for Fisher’s untimely death. Harrison Ford was never going to return for anything more than a glorified cameo — it’s a miracle they even got that out of him.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Audrey Horne » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:39 am

Yes, you’re right. But with the Return having 836 new characters and fitting them all in, I guess that equates to focusing on them for me.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby mtwentz » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:03 pm

It’s pretty common to bring in new, younger characters and move the older characters more in the background. Just look at every American daytime drama.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:27 pm

mtwentz wrote:It’s pretty common to bring in new, younger characters and move the older characters more in the background. Just look at every American daytime drama.


That’s not what happened in TP:TR though. Offhand, I’d guess that the actors with the most screen time were MacLachlan, Lynch, Dern, Watts, Ferrer, Forster, Horse....some “new,” but not young! There were the dumb rumors that Amanda Seyfried and the “new class” were going to take over the show, but nothing was further from the truth.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Audrey Horne » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:51 pm

Those are ongoing (mostly daytime) serials. Where it is organically changing week to week.

The reboots or next generations (ha, I guess except ST: the Next Generation) seem to be always greeted with pining for the original cast.

I’m not saying I’m right or wrong, just how I view both the SW and TP sagas. And how they were both tied to huge parts of my life and how they came back I experienced them the same way. And how I still view them which is just cheery picking certain scenes. And that’s it’s odd that they both coincided.

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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby TwinsPeak » Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:56 am

Audrey Horne wrote:Those are ongoing (mostly daytime) serials. Where it is organically changing week to week.

The reboots or next generations (ha, I guess except ST: the Next Generation) seem to be always greeted with pining for the original cast.

I’m not saying I’m right or wrong, just how I view both the SW and TP sagas. And how they were both tied to huge parts of my life and how they came back I experienced them the same way. And how I still view them which is just cheery picking certain scenes. And that’s it’s odd that they both coincided.

Go and love what you love. It’s all good.



I hope the new Star Trek "Picard" show is good, coming out in January.

And I personally only like the 1st 3 original Star Wars movies, the rest are horrible imo. Rogue One was decent.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby ManBehindWinkies » Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:04 pm

There was a time when my Star Wars and Twin Peaks fandom was on an equal level, before the prequel trilogy came out. I was super geeked about the release of The Phantom Menace. I just saw The Rise of Skywalker, and I don't even know if I can call myself a Star Wars fan after 20 more years of Star Wars content. I didn't think the prequel trilogy was very good but I found them relatively watchable and there was some interesting stuff, which shouldn't be particularly noteworthy. I found the first two movies of the new trilogy pretty entertaining but far from perfect. But I was straight up bored during The Rise of Skywalker, The only fan service moment that gave me a little bit of nostalgic joy was Billy Dee Williams showing up, but nearly everything else fell completely flat. And this was a movie that was all about fan service. This is the first time I've found a Star Wars movie this boring.

I've watched The Mandalorian, which I've found to be enjoyable, but it too is literally nothing but fan service (the way it's packaged is a lot more appealing than RoS). Everything is repackaged from the original trilogy. There are more desert planets.... and there are even more desert planets in RoS. The Mandalorian has been a smash success, some people calling it one of the best things on television which is crazy to me, but I'll give it credit for doing fan service well. I mean Baby Yoda is like, PEAK fan service. RoS was an apt example of fan service gone stale.

I like Rian Johnson, and would be interested to see what he does in the future of Star Wars, if he indeed ends up doing more Star Wars. At this point I'll almost be surprised if he does. I think he had the right instincts with The Last Jedi but The Mandalorian and The Rise of Skywalker almost seem like a rebuke of what he was trying to do for the franchise. Are the fans going to be receptive to taking the franchise in a new direction or is it always going to be about rehashing what came before? Personally I have almost no interest in the latter, and that seems to be where things are headed for the franchise.

Twin Peaks is on a completely different level for me at this point. David Lynch being the primary reason for that. I never held George Lucas in such high regard, and didn't feel it was a travesty that he was relinquishing control of the franchise, but it's played out as a worst case scenario, at least in my estimation. I'd have zero interest in Twin Peaks without Lynch. It is interesting that the most divisive reaction to Twin Peaks The Return was from the fan base. One of the key reasons why I trust David Lynch if he decides to do a Season 4 is because he doesn't give a crap what the fans think or if the fans want more. He's going to do it if there's a new experience in the Twin Peaks universe that he wants to create. Which seems about as different as it gets from what is happening with Disney and Star Wars.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby mtwentz » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:56 am

ManBehindWinkies wrote: It is interesting that the most divisive reaction to Twin Peaks The Return was from the fan base. One of the key reasons why I trust David Lynch if he decides to do a Season 4 is because he doesn't give a crap what the fans think or if the fans want more. He's going to do it if there's a new experience in the Twin Peaks universe that he wants to create. Which seems about as different as it gets from what is happening with Disney and Star Wars.


I have a slightly different take: I think Lynch does care if people appreciate his art. I think that's only natural; we are all social animals and appreciate the approval from other human beings.

But Lynch learned fairly early in his career that he loves the act of creating more than he loves approval from others. And to betray his own creative muse in order to please others is not a road he wants to follow. Thus, we get a piece of true art like The Return, beautiful, yet polarizing. Praised as the best show of the 2010s by some critics, yest completely reviled by many in the fan base.

It's just the nature of the beast. I always love to bring up the Bob Dylan analogy- Dylan is a guy in the music world who I also see as not willing to compromise art in order to please the existing fan base. To the point of getting booed at concerts. And yet, in the end, his art has stood the test of time and the bulk of his fans are eventually won over.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby eyeboogers » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:40 am

mtwentz wrote:...yest completely reviled by many in the fan base.


By many I think we are talking about approximately 7 very, very loud people.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby mtwentz » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:12 am

eyeboogers wrote:
mtwentz wrote:...yest completely reviled by many in the fan base.


By many I think we are talking about approximately 7 very, very loud people.


I should have said by 'some in the fan base'.

I honestly think it's extremely difficult to measure how the existing fan base felt about Season 3. My guess is that about 80% loved it, but there is no way to measure it.

I do have one hypothesis: if you liked Fire Walk With Me and most of Lynch's post-Twin Peaks work, you were very likely to like Season 3. If you didn't like FWWM, Lost Highway, and Mulholland Drive, or at least two of those 3, Season 3 was never going to appeal to you.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby LateReg » Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:22 pm

mtwentz wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
mtwentz wrote:...yest completely reviled by many in the fan base.


By many I think we are talking about approximately 7 very, very loud people.


I should have said by 'some in the fan base'.

I honestly think it's extremely difficult to measure how the existing fan base felt about Season 3. My guess is that about 80% loved it, but there is no way to measure it.

I do have one hypothesis: if you liked Fire Walk With Me and most of Lynch's post-Twin Peaks work, you were very likely to like Season 3. If you didn't like FWWM, Lost Highway, and Mulholland Drive, or at least two of those 3, Season 3 was never going to appeal to you.


I actually do think there is a larger discrepancy than 80%. I have nothing but anecdotal evidence and feelings from reading random comments across the internet. We can't forget that The Return was an extremely challenging work of art. I'm happy that as many people took to it as they did!

I largely agree with your hypothesis, though, at least in general.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby ManBehindWinkies » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:39 pm

It seemed to be to be a significant percentage of the fan base that didn't like S3. Whatever the actual amount, the key thing is the most vocal dissenters would call themselves "fans". Did anyone read Brad Dukes article in Blue Rose Magazine? He wasn't exactly a loud dissenter as it took him a while to voice his disappointment. This was a guy who was enough of a fan to write a book. I didn't read the article so I don't want to comment specifically on Brad Dukes, but the Franich and Jensen podcast either paraphrased or quoted him as feeling "betrayed" by season 3, and that seems to be a common enough feeling among fans, whether it be Twin Peaks or Star Wars, to comment on.

Betrayal is an interesting experience for fans to have. It kind of gets to the heart of the issue at hand. Many fans have come to expect things from stories, and if these expectations are not met, it leads to disappointment, and increasingly, anger. The recent Star Wars film presented a worst case scenario for what happens when fear of vocal fan resentment dictates creative choices. Non fans are often more wiling to engage with these works on its own terms. And many fans can do this as well. I'm not sure there's ever a scenario where that's not the best way to experience these works.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:21 am

ManBehindWinkies wrote:One of the key reasons why I trust David Lynch if he decides to do a Season 4 is because he doesn't give a crap what the fans think or if the fans want more. He's going to do it if there's a new experience in the Twin Peaks universe that he wants to create. Which seems about as different as it gets from what is happening with Disney and Star Wars.


Sorry, have to say this: Lynch also doesn't give a crap about other people's work and efforts, given how he blatantly trash-talked Season 2 prior to the premiere of Season 3. These other people being his colaborators that have done their best to save "his" series after he abandoned it. There was avalanche of good stuff coming out of that season, and not all of it was Lynch, too.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby AXX°N N. » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:07 am

ManBehindWinkies wrote:Did anyone read Brad Dukes article in Blue Rose Magazine?

I did. I understand it was him voicing his personal feelings, but the mag presented it as a 'critical' essay and I found it anything but. It had a lot of fallacies in thought. For instance, the new series is put under this hyper-scrutinizing and often pessimistic lens that the old series isn't flayed with. One example that clings to mind is when he refers to Lynch's son's musical cameo in a rather mean way, referring to it and other casting choices as mere nepotism, not recounting the fact that Lynch's other son was in the old show as a character with full-on speaking lines. There was little counterpoint to the whole thing, and it wasn't a very compelling read.

I've seen this kind of fallacy among angry fans. They'll gripe about Lynch 'just inserting whatever he wants/recycling ideas from old stuff/throwing in musical groups just because' as if it's new, when that's always what he did. Under this same negative lens, Julee Cruise was 'just a rehash' of Industrial Symphony--so was MJA's character. The song on the jukebox in the RR is literally from that play. Joan Chen's character was originally going to be Isabella Rosellini, Lynch's lover, in a role very, very remarkably close to Dorothy, and of course there's Kyle. These are but two of many. There are parallels people don't see because they don't want to, and contradictions that arise from this are ignored.

And I don't like the idea that fans who are 'too exposed' to the material are at risk of not enjoying the new stuff because they aren't 'detached enough.' I'm as exposed to the material as they come, it's just that there are different ways to think about and process it. I think fan anger arises merely from, ironically, the kind of mental architecture Lynch's films are about. People construct things in their heads that are hyper-personal and arguably far away from even the subjective reality of a thing. 'Twin Peaks,' like it were quantum, is different things all at once, existing differently in people's heads. And I don't want to get preachy, but there's certain ancient lines of thought that attachment is soul-effacing.

All this makes me ask the question--ok, but what about obsessive fans of the new stuff? They're fans. Why don't they get to raise holy hell?
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