Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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LateReg
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby LateReg » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:34 pm

To Killmoore's implied analogy, I will repeat the little anecdote I mentioned earlier in the thread. It's clear that Rian Johnson was in a Twin Peaks: The Returnesque subversive mindset while making The Last Jedi, which must have finished shooting by the time The Return aired, but didn't premiere until three months later. It's no wonder that Johnson felt kinship with The Return, and there is even evidence of that: don't forget, he dressed as Dougie Jones for Halloween '17, smack dab in between The Return's conclusion and Last Jedi's premiere!
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:56 pm

I like Rian Johnson, but The Last Jedi can’t share the same plane of existence as TP:TR. It’s a mainstream piece of IP that dips its toe into the water of rocking the boat. In the context of the Star Wars franchise, sure, the Luke stuff was subversive and refreshing. But it’s not in the same stratosphere as Cooper/Dougie Jones. This is my real problem with Star Wars. The last time the storytelling took any kind of a leap forward was Empire. Nothing since then feels like it contributes anything meaningful other than an audience-pleasing commercial grab.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Hester Prynne » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:09 pm

I was really surprised by Rogue One - I think that’s the best of the newer Star Wars movies since the original trilogy. I enjoyed that more than TFA or The Last Jedi. Haven’t seen Rise of Skywalker yet.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:25 pm

Hester Prynne wrote:I was really surprised by Rogue One - I think that’s the best of the newer Star Wars movies since the original trilogy. I enjoyed that more than TFA or The Last Jedi. Haven’t seen Rise of Skywalker yet.


Agreed. Rogue One was the most I’ve enjoyed a Stat Wars movie since Empire.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby LateReg » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:11 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I like Rian Johnson, but The Last Jedi can’t share the same plane of existence as TP:TR. It’s a mainstream piece of IP that dips its toe into the water of rocking the boat. In the context of the Star Wars franchise, sure, the Luke stuff was subversive and refreshing. But it’s not in the same stratosphere as Cooper/Dougie Jones. This is my real problem with Star Wars. The last time the storytelling took any kind of a leap forward was Empire. Nothing since then feels like it contributes anything meaningful other than an audience-pleasing commercial grab.


The similarities between The Return and Last Jedi are very interesting. Yet the night and day difference in the depth and creativity of the projects and the praise that Last Jedi received simply for being as different as it was speaks volumes about the nature of franchise filmmaking. I still can't believe that Last Jedi caused THAT much of an uproar and debate that is still ongoing.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:23 pm

LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:I like Rian Johnson, but The Last Jedi can’t share the same plane of existence as TP:TR. It’s a mainstream piece of IP that dips its toe into the water of rocking the boat. In the context of the Star Wars franchise, sure, the Luke stuff was subversive and refreshing. But it’s not in the same stratosphere as Cooper/Dougie Jones. This is my real problem with Star Wars. The last time the storytelling took any kind of a leap forward was Empire. Nothing since then feels like it contributes anything meaningful other than an audience-pleasing commercial grab.


The similarities between The Return and Last Jedi are very interesting. Yet the night and day difference in the depth and creativity of the projects speaks volumes about the nature of franchise filmmaking. I still can't believe that Last Jedi caused THAT much of an uproar and debate that is still ongoing.


Agreed. (For the sake of history, I’m typing this response during a commercial break of Mr. Robot, which may end up being the most subversive/brilliant/disastrous finale in TV history.)
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby baxter » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:26 pm

I didn't see Star Wars until I was 17 or so, and I had seen many films that borrowed from it by then. So I've never been that obsessed with i.

The first two (original) films are good. Return of the Jedi is where the rot creeps in, and you can see that it has become "toyetic". The Phantom Menace gets a drubbing, but in its aggressive appeal to small children, it has a very similar tone to Return of the Jedi to me. The only major flaw in the film is that the central child actor either can't act to save his life, or was poorly directed. I remember the other two prequel being over portentious, but not terrible.

I saw The Force Awakens long after it came out on Netflix, and just thought it was a pointless reboot of the original Star Wars. I don't really see why the last 3 films are anything other than a bunch of Star Wars fans writing something really safe that follows the formula, rather than anything that was originally intended. It's exactly like what would have happened if Twin peaks S3 had neither Frost nor Lynch involved. The bind, of course, is that George Lucas would probably have had crap ideas that people hated :-D So I don't know if it is much fun being a Star Wars superfan or not.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby LateReg » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:36 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Agreed. (For the sake of history, I’m typing this response during a commercial break of Mr. Robot, which may end up being the most subversive/brilliant/disastrous finale in TV history.)


Interesting. I will be watching later.

Also, for the record, few things ever are as subversive and simultaneously profound or groundbreaking as The Return, so while Last Jedi invites comparison, the invitation also does it no favors. Which is to say that Last Jedi is creative franchise filmmaking, but far from any sort of pinnacle. Which is fine...it's just sort of ironically illuminating.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Audrey Horne » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:43 pm

Ha, I thought this thread was the obvious Han and Leia and Cooper and Audrey spawned an evil son plot.

So many similarities for both.

I love Star Wars and Empire, and Return gets silly but still has the chemistry of its stars.
I love TP’s first season and the setup of the second.... and then the end part gets goofier and goofier.

Lucas takes full control and makes the prequels, that are tone deaf and covaluted.
Lynch makes thenprequel with full control and is tone deaf and convoluted.
Later many online deem them masterpieces to my constant surprise.
I try to watch both and still can’t fathom why.

The Sequel trilogy comes back with Fisher, Ford and Hamill announced.
The Return is announced with many of the cast coming back.
The sequel trilogy will focus on new people.
The Return the same thing.
Fan favorites Han and Leia are estranged and their son is evil.
Fan favorites Cooper and Audrey have a evil son.
The sequel trilogy is constantly giving us exposition and changing and a mess.
The Return is constantly giving us information and a mess.

My opinion.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby LateReg » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:26 am

Audrey Horne wrote:Ha, I thought this thread was the obvious Han and Leia and Cooper and Audrey spawned an evil son plot.

So many similarities for both.

I love Star Wars and Empire, and Return gets silly but still has the chemistry of its stars.
I love TP’s first season and the setup of the second.... and then the end part gets goofier and goofier.

Lucas takes full control and makes the prequels, that are tone deaf and covaluted.
Lynch makes thenprequel with full control and is tone deaf and convoluted.
Later many online deem them masterpieces to my constant surprise.
I try to watch both and still can’t fathom why.

The Sequel trilogy comes back with Fisher, Ford and Hamill announced.
The Return is announced with many of the cast coming back.
The sequel trilogy will focus on new people.
The Return the same thing.
Fan favorites Han and Leia are estranged and their son is evil.
Fan favorites Cooper and Audrey have a evil son.
The sequel trilogy is constantly giving us exposition and changing and a mess.
The Return is constantly giving us information and a mess.

My opinion.


That's actually very interesting.

One thing though: I don't think anyone, at least not any reputable source/published article, has ever called the Star Wars prequels masterpieces. Some defend them as having vision or being underrated, but in all my years of reading film criticism and scouring for critics' lists (that's basically all I do) I've never heard anyone refer to them as masterpieces. Fire Walk With Me, on the hand, has absolutely undergone a reappraisal that has resulted in multiple published articles and offhand comments regarding its masterpiece status. Neither here nor there, but I never realized you didn't care for Fire Walk With Me. I struggled with how I felt about that one for a long time, too.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:59 am

It’s difficult to think of any film in the last 50 years — certainly in my lifetime — that has been so completely reappraised by critics as FWWM.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Soolsma » Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:14 pm

Okay people. I yesterday went to see The Rise of Skywalker in my first "4dx" cinema experience. For those who are unfamiliar with the format: next to the use of 3d technology it has moving chairs in x, y, z dimensions, gusts of wind, smell, water effects, air jets, snow. And oh boy, it sure was an experience. The effects were perfectly queued up to everything happening on the screen. Small, concentrated air jets would blow your eyes as the lasers shoot. While a character is being stabbed by a saber through the chest you would feel an actual jab in the back. The rockiest were of course the spaceship battles, in which the chairs went full throttle! All in all I have to say I had to get used to the experience, and thought it was somewhat distracting at first, but later on I could experience it as a whole. It was great, to say the least. A truly new experience that I recommend to anyone. Now, of course it works best with movies like Star Wars. I cannot yet imagine seeing a movie that requires contemplation in that way.

The movie isn't really all that good. There is a constantly changing macguffin that rapidly veers the story into whichever direction. We go from one planet to the next. There is no time to take a gasp of breath, character development or get accustomed to a planets natives, just the plot devices all crammed together in what space is left in this hurried finale. The occasional joke felt very off because there was no air to breathe.

Still, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Why? Because I knew it was gonna suck in the departments I don't care about.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby AXX°N N. » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:38 pm

LateReg wrote:
Audrey Horne wrote:Ha, I thought this thread was the obvious Han and Leia and Cooper and Audrey spawned an evil son plot.

So many similarities for both.

I love Star Wars and Empire, and Return gets silly but still has the chemistry of its stars.
I love TP’s first season and the setup of the second.... and then the end part gets goofier and goofier.

Lucas takes full control and makes the prequels, that are tone deaf and covaluted.
Lynch makes thenprequel with full control and is tone deaf and convoluted.
Later many online deem them masterpieces to my constant surprise.
I try to watch both and still can’t fathom why.

The Sequel trilogy comes back with Fisher, Ford and Hamill announced.
The Return is announced with many of the cast coming back.
The sequel trilogy will focus on new people.
The Return the same thing.
Fan favorites Han and Leia are estranged and their son is evil.
Fan favorites Cooper and Audrey have a evil son.
The sequel trilogy is constantly giving us exposition and changing and a mess.
The Return is constantly giving us information and a mess.

My opinion.


That's actually very interesting.

One thing though: I don't think anyone, at least not any reputable source/published article, has ever called the Star Wars prequels masterpieces. Some defend them as having vision or being underrated, but in all my years of reading film criticism and scouring for critics' lists (that's basically all I do) I've never heard anyone refer to them as masterpieces. Fire Walk With Me, on the hand, has absolutely undergone a reappraisal that has resulted in multiple published articles and offhand comments regarding its masterpiece status. Neither here nor there, but I never realized you didn't care for Fire Walk With Me. I struggled with how I felt about that one for a long time, too.

Yeah, even in this thread any prequel defending is coached with a pretty steep dose of 'but they're not exactly great.'

It's worth pointing out, just to undermine this perception that they were universally panned, that Roger Ebert, America's most well-known critic, gave 1 and 3 both 3.5 out of 4 stars, and 2 just 2 stars. That's a solid 3 out of 4 average.

It's also worth pointing out that unlike the prequels, FWWM and The Return have co-writers. The parallels seem kind of a stretch. I have a hard time accepting FWWM as 'tone deaf' when victims of abuse have heavily related to it in a cathartic way, including my mother. And I wouldn't really classify The Return as 'over-explaining,' especially when a lot of its exposition seems on the nose and undermined constantly. And if they're both convoluted, they're convoluted in entirely different ways.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby LateReg » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:15 pm

AXX°N N. wrote:
It's also worth pointing out that unlike the prequels, FWWM and The Return have co-writers. The parallels seem kind of a stretch. I have a hard time accepting FWWM as 'tone deaf' when victims of abuse have heavily related to it in a cathartic way, including my mother. And I wouldn't really classify The Return as 'over-explaining,' especially when a lot of its exposition seems on the nose and undermined constantly. And if they're both convoluted, they're convoluted in entirely different ways.


I had assumed that Audrey chose her words carefully in that section, referring to Star Wars as "exposition" and The Return as "information." Not over-explaining, which The Return clearly does not (and I agree with your assessment about the games it plays with exposition), but rather a continuous stream of information that keeps building rather than resolving (new characters introduced even in the later parts, for example).
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Postby Audrey Horne » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:24 pm

Yes, SW and Peaks meant a lot to me and shaped my childhood years and then my teen years, and had eerily strange parallels to how I (bold) viewed them including their returns. What I posted was my point of view (thanks, Obi Wan) knowing fully well it doesn’t match the fandom of both.

I meant it was eerie how I felt about the two franchises, experiencing the same feeling time and time again. My gut reaction.

Like Phantom Menace. Okay I had months, a year to know Ford and Fisher wouldn’t be in it and enjoy the story on a different level. FWWM, I knew Kyle was going to be a cameo and no Fenn months ahead of time and went in to experience it straightforward. Both prequels. Fine. First day showing for each. SW with friends, FWWM one person (and less than ten in theater total)... for both excitement slowly turned to groans and wow, this is bad. How can this be so bad?

Then when the Return was announced with SW about to be released, I was over the moon. Both had the original actors tied to it. Then for me, the final results for both were only excitement around the original actors... and cherry picking the scenes I would watch.

It’s not a critique, it’s just funny how I basically went through the same emotions with both stories.
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