Part 8: reference to 2001?

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Andromedeaux
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Part 8: reference to 2001?

Postby Andromedeaux » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:40 pm

I watched 2001 for the first time in a while and I now realize that Part 8 is so directly inspired by the 2 hour mark of Kubrick's film. I can't see part 8 the same way again. I know I'm not the first to make this comparison, but holy shit.. part 8 now feels like someone took my favorite jazz albums of the 60's and remastered those tracks with some synth for coloring for presentation to a younger audience. I did not realize how patent was the comparison to the chaotic warp scenes into the monolith. Especially how the score interacts with the visuals. And I concede, all Lynch and Kubrick did was take an already amazing cut of music and appropriate it, but still. I recall the moment I heard the Threnody strings in Part 8 and thinking "finally someone is putting this amazing work to visuals" after I had listened to it for most of my adult life. The images on screen during the part 8 bomb scene are potent, at times exceeding 2001's visuals in impact, but 2001 is far less dependent on music and prior footage. The visuals so stunning and original. Yet, even Kubrick was inspired:

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What I like about Part 8: historical context, the fact that the magic happens on a small scale... Eddies of turbulence, tiny molecular interactions. Creation myth and relationship to the rest of the twin peaks universe.

What I like about 2001: Novelty, terror, fear of the unknown, perspective (flashes of astronaut's face)

Overall, I just think there are too many similarities to ignore. I can't help but think Lynch watched 2001 and tried his best. I hate to say that bc I love part 8 but it's so obvious.
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Re: Part 8: reference to 2001?

Postby Soolsma » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:34 am

Lynch and Kubrick have always vocally expressed their admiration for the other. Kubrick has more than once referred to Eraserhead as his favourite film, even showed it to his crew during production of the Shining to show the mood he was aiming for. Lynch has said that his favourite films by Kubrick are Lolita and The Shining.

I find that there are a lot of similiraties between Lynch in Kubrick when it comes to cinematographic style. Especially so when building up mood. For example in the compositions used in long, wide shots showing the environment.

And yes, there are an undeniable lot of similarities between part. 8 and 2001. This has been noted by many critics.
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Re: Part 8: reference to 2001?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:38 am

I think P8 owes more to the work of Stan Brakhage (which certainly also influenced 2001). It’s worth noting that Lynch has been dabbling in this style since before 2001 was released (see his “16mm experiments” from the Lime Green Collection, dating from 1967-68, which I think are on YouTube).

Certainly, 2001 and Kubrick are swirling around in there. But I don’t think it’s fair to call it an imitation or “remaster.”
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Re: Part 8: reference to 2001?

Postby mtwentz » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:32 am

The Stargate comparison was pretty obvious from the beginning, but that's the only part that reminded me of 2001. Much of the rest reminded me of old '50s monster movies.

Edit: I should add that no piece of work is truly 100% original. All film is influenced by films the filmmaker has seen before. The stargate moment is the only part of Episode 8 that feels to me like it was directly influenced from a specific work.
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Re: Part 8: reference to 2001?

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:50 pm

When the bomb went off in Part 8, both the visuals and the music were, to me, quite obviously inspired by the Star Gate sequence from 2001: A Space Odyssey. In fact it could be considered a tribute.

For that reason, I had trouble simply sitting back and being one with the scene. Recalling the absolutely next level experience from my childhood, an other-worldly, other-dimensionally mind-ripping trip into planes of thought I'd never reached previously, the combination of fear and wonder were literally overwhelming and I had never experienced anything like it before. Also, since we were seeing it all through someone's eyes, and putting ourselves in his shoes, there was an additional element of truly being there. I couldn't help but feel what he was obviously feeling too. On the other hand, the explosion is something we merely witnessed as an audience seated safely at home, peering into the fire but not actually within it.

From my personal viewpoint Part 8's explosion sequence was more about exploring the murderous destruction that humans have so voraciously sought and achieved. In that regard it was powerful. It delivered me to awful reminders of World War II and the widespread incineration of innocent Japanese civilians. It personified the total fury and horror experienced by the victims of unbridled rage, hatred, and violence. (Interestingly enough, I'd never heard the music and was therefore unaware of its pertinent themes).

It was awesome, but I couldn't fully enjoy the sequence because it did not have anywhere near the effect that 2001's Star Gate sequence had on me. I saw a clear homage or influence there, but the result did not ascend to the same fear-inducing, consciousness-bending heights, and it did not strike me on as many levels. It was more nightmarish than "beyond".

It's worth considering whether that has to do with the decades of desensitizing experiences that have transpired since I saw 2001, the fact that I was still a child when I saw it, the potential to have become a different person since then, and perhaps most importantly the fact that since I have seen 2001, it was impossible to view the explosion without some form of bias or comparison at play.
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Re: Part 8: reference to 2001?

Postby AXX°N N. » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:31 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:Recalling the absolutely next level experience from my childhood, an other-worldly, other-dimensionally mind-ripping trip into planes of thought I'd never reached previously, the combination of fear and wonder were literally overwhelming and I had never experienced anything like it before.

I had seen 2001 already and really not had this experience with it, but what you describe here is rather how I felt with P8. My husband recalls that he could feel my body reacting in odd ways, as if I were essentially transfixed, or really reacting to something happening on the news. My heart was racing and there was a sinking feeling. After the episode ended, I sobbed. I never saw 2001 in theaters, I've only seen a handful of movies in theaters, because I don't like going out. And although a lot of my favorite sci-fi deals in questions of extraterrestrial life and human advancement in a speculative or sceptical way, I can't say it's a theme I care much about. On the other hand, the A-bomb specifically was the focal point of my favorite novel, Gravity's Rainbow, where it was transformed in many ways (including the occult) into a very broad, terrifying existential metaphor that basically haunts the book and commits violence against the book and reader alike.

So, I'd say that it does rely on personal experience. P8 works for me better because I simply care more about the thematic context this long transition is being presented as. Being guided longform into the future has too much presumption--but to be guided into the A-bomb's cloud is something far more tangible and universal, something people have actually experienced. Even then, there was the unsettling feeling that this image of destruction seemed somehow deified. ...

Transfixment and themes aside, there was a part of me that felt it similar to 2001, but it wasn't enough, clearly, to take me out of the intended effect. I think there are similarities even past the visuals, too. In 2001, the scene is a transition meant to throw you out of context and hurdle you into the future. In TP, it follows an extremely jarring time transition, one to the past, one that has never occured in TP before, and then explodes on screen -- in a way, tearing what you thought about TP apart, after the previous week felt strangely formulaic, familiar, and expository. Either way the scene is a way to guide the audience toward something very different.
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Re: Part 8: reference to 2001?

Postby Andromedeaux » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:54 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:When the bomb went off in Part 8, both the visuals and the music were, to me, quite obviously inspired by the Star Gate sequence from 2001: A Space Odyssey. In fact it could be considered a tribute.

For that reason, I had trouble simply sitting back and being one with the scene. Recalling the absolutely next level experience from my childhood, an other-worldly, other-dimensionally mind-ripping trip into planes of thought I'd never reached previously, the combination of fear and wonder were literally overwhelming and I had never experienced anything like it before. Also, since we were seeing it all through someone's eyes, and putting ourselves in his shoes, there was an additional element of truly being there. I couldn't help but feel what he was obviously feeling too. On the other hand, the explosion is something we merely witnessed as an audience seated safely at home, peering into the fire but not actually within it.

From my personal viewpoint Part 8's explosion sequence was more about exploring the murderous destruction that humans have so voraciously sought and achieved. In that regard it was powerful. It delivered me to awful reminders of World War II and the widespread incineration of innocent Japanese civilians. It personified the total fury and horror experienced by the victims of unbridled rage, hatred, and violence. (Interestingly enough, I'd never heard the music and was therefore unaware of its pertinent themes).

It was awesome, but I couldn't fully enjoy the sequence because it did not have anywhere near the effect that 2001's Star Gate sequence had on me. I saw a clear homage or influence there, but the result did not ascend to the same fear-inducing, consciousness-bending heights, and it did not strike me on as many levels. It was more nightmarish than "beyond".

It's worth considering whether that has to do with the decades of desensitizing experiences that have transpired since I saw 2001, the fact that I was still a child when I saw it, the potential to have become a different person since then, and perhaps most importantly the fact that since I have seen 2001, it was impossible to view the explosion without some form of bias or comparison at play.


yes to all of this.

Mr. Reindeer wrote: I don’t think it’s fair to call it an imitation or “remaster.”


I wouldn't call it an imitation or a remaster either that was a bad word choice - what I meant is that it reminds me of when artists are so inspired by original that they either knowingly or unknowingly try to recapture its essence. Knowingly and admittedly is obviously more admirable. Kubrick here admits his influence and collab with the original artist to add elements to it that are novel. The similarities here between 2001 and part 8 so obvious it would be ridiculous to suggest anything other than direct influence. It's kind of like that Childish Gambino song last year and no I did not hear American Pharaoh first. If I had, I am sure my conclusion would have been the same - you have to be tone deaf and illiterate not to hear that childish gambino heard this song or picked up on the zeitgeist both sonically and thematically. Now, if you ask me which song is better - This is America. Better production.


Part 8 certainly has lots of novelty. I actually think the scenes in NM with the frog moth, this is the water. That shit is incredible. It;s the perfect serenity in the face of chaos. Part 8 also seems like it's 2 hours long somehow like watching that fission bent spacetime through the screen.
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Re: Part 8: reference to 2001?

Postby LateReg » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:15 am

AXX°N N. wrote:I had seen 2001 already and really not had this experience with it, but what you describe here is rather how I felt with P8. My husband recalls that he could feel my body reacting in odd ways, as if I were essentially transfixed, or really reacting to something happening on the news. My heart was racing and there was a sinking feeling. After the episode ended, I sobbed. I never saw 2001 in theaters, I've only seen a handful of movies in theaters, because I don't like going out. And although a lot of my favorite sci-fi deals in questions of extraterrestrial life and human advancement in a speculative or sceptical way, I can't say it's a theme I care much about. On the other hand, the A-bomb specifically was the focal point of my favorite novel, Gravity's Rainbow, where it was transformed in many ways (including the occult) into a very broad, terrifying existential metaphor that basically haunts the book and commits violence against the book and reader alike.

So, I'd say that it does rely on personal experience. P8 works for me better because I simply care more about the thematic context this long transition is being presented as. Being guided longform into the future has too much presumption--but to be guided into the A-bomb's cloud is something far more tangible and universal, something people have actually experienced. Even then, there was the unsettling feeling that this image of destruction seemed somehow deified. ...

Transfixment and themes aside, there was a part of me that felt it similar to 2001, but it wasn't enough, clearly, to take me out of the intended effect. I think there are similarities even past the visuals, too. In 2001, the scene is a transition meant to throw you out of context and hurdle you into the future. In TP, it follows an extremely jarring time transition, one to the past, one that has never occured in TP before, and then explodes on screen -- in a way, tearing what you thought about TP apart, after the previous week felt strangely formulaic, familiar, and expository. Either way the scene is a way to guide the audience toward something very different.


I agree with a little bit with almost everything that was written in this thread so far, but this is by far what I agree with most. Very well said. The gift is to be placed with such violence inside the atomic blast, to think about such manmade destruction on such a visceral level, atoms splitting apart and worlds torn open. The implications of a world in which something like that already exists, man's imagination run amuck, the cause of his own destruction, the true loss of innocence, no sci-fi at all. Incredible. I reacted, like some weirdo, perhaps, by pumping my fist and saying Fuck Yeah at least three times at the TV the longer the sequence went on. (There's also the remarkable fact that this sequence aired on TV, but its expert execution means that it registers as a lasting work of cinema rather than just groundbreaking television.)

What I disagree with is the notion that Lynch's homage/copying/reversal of Kubrick makes it a lesser thing. I think that, yes, the 2001 sequence was probably on Lynch's mind, but I think he took that as a challenge; I also think, as Reindeer pointed out, that it fits into Lynch's experimental roots as well as Brakhage. But the most important part is that when you do something like that - take on one of the most famous sequences in cinema - you have to be up to the challenge, and Lynch was. According to Matt Zoller Seitz, Part 8's sequence is the first thing he's seen that doesn't simply attempt to take on that 2001 sequence, but also lives up to it. That's high praise and in my opinion the best way to look at it, and the way I have ever since the initial shock of the sequence wore off.

From my point of view, there are three such similar sequences that will go down in history as the best popular examples, and each does something different and complimentary. 2001 is about the journey into the unknown. The Tree of Life is about the creation of the universe. Part 8: Gotta Light is about the destruction of the universe. 2001 can and always will stand on its own, but to have all three of these strengthens each of them, in my opinion, and gives one a lot to think about. And, for what it's worth, Lynch was once asked about Tree of Life and stated politely but clearly that "it's not his thing" or something like that, clearly insinuating that he did not like it. Which also lends weight to the anti-Tree of Life feeling of the sequence.
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Re: Part 8: reference to 2001?

Postby AXX°N N. » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:39 pm

LateReg wrote:Lynch was once asked about Tree of Life and stated politely but clearly that "it's not his thing" or something like that, clearly insinuating that he did not like it. Which also lends weight to the anti-Tree of Life feeling of the sequence.

He said, very characteristically, "It wasn't my cup of tea." :lol:
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Re: Part 8: reference to 2001?

Postby AgentEcho » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:25 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:When the bomb went off in Part 8, both the visuals and the music were, to me, quite obviously inspired by the Star Gate sequence from 2001: A Space Odyssey. In fact it could be considered a tribute.

For that reason, I had trouble simply sitting back and being one with the scene. Recalling the absolutely next level experience from my childhood, an other-worldly, other-dimensionally mind-ripping trip into planes of thought I'd never reached previously, the combination of fear and wonder were literally overwhelming and I had never experienced anything like it before. Also, since we were seeing it all through someone's eyes, and putting ourselves in his shoes, there was an additional element of truly being there. I couldn't help but feel what he was obviously feeling too. On the other hand, the explosion is something we merely witnessed as an audience seated safely at home, peering into the fire but not actually within it.

From my personal viewpoint Part 8's explosion sequence was more about exploring the murderous destruction that humans have so voraciously sought and achieved. In that regard it was powerful. It delivered me to awful reminders of World War II and the widespread incineration of innocent Japanese civilians. It personified the total fury and horror experienced by the victims of unbridled rage, hatred, and violence. (Interestingly enough, I'd never heard the music and was therefore unaware of its pertinent themes).

It was awesome, but I couldn't fully enjoy the sequence because it did not have anywhere near the effect that 2001's Star Gate sequence had on me. I saw a clear homage or influence there, but the result did not ascend to the same fear-inducing, consciousness-bending heights, and it did not strike me on as many levels. It was more nightmarish than "beyond".

It's worth considering whether that has to do with the decades of desensitizing experiences that have transpired since I saw 2001, the fact that I was still a child when I saw it, the potential to have become a different person since then, and perhaps most importantly the fact that since I have seen 2001, it was impossible to view the explosion without some form of bias or comparison at play.



I agree with your take on the sheer power of the 2001 stargate sequence. It was such a unique combination of intense filmmaking, narrative elements and intellectual scope, I don't know if it can ever be replicated. But I don't think the Part 8 Bomb sequence needs to live up to it. It was clearly influenced by that scene (and actually, by Kubrick in general... the black and white nuclear blast recalls Strangelove, the use of Penderecki recalls both the use of his music in The Shining and the use of Ligeti in 2001). I think it came about as close to replicating the brain frying experience as a scene so obviously influenced by it can be. As opposed to the 2001 scene providing just enough context to send your mind racing to put it all together, this one provided essentially no context, which almost is the next best thing to the broad, cosmic scope of 2001.

As influential as 2001 has been, few filmmakers have tried to venture into stargate territory. I was glad to see a worthy filmmaker attempt it and come close enough.

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