World of Blue - Archived Forum 2007-2022

We live in a much more cynical society than we did 20 or 30 years ago and that has had an impact on the way we engage with everything. The most recent re-evaluation of something I hated when it came out was Speed Racer. I thought it was hokey, childish, unrealistic, and viewing the world though non-existent lens, especially when compared to two other big, "realistic", adult, gritty tent pole movies came out that have had a huge influence on culture since - Iron Man and The Dark Knight. However, upon a rewatch with a friend early last year I found that I loved it. The stylization and optimism won me over this time but the thing that I really noticed was that it seems to have been sincerely made with love and I appreciated that. Now it seems like that is missing a lot and has been replaced with irony and trolling, attempts to be adult and serious, or a combination.

Sincerity is also one of the reasons I love "so bad they're good movies", you can tell that they crafted with love, a vision, and not attempts to follow the most lucrative or popular trends. It just so happens that they are unable to execute their vision because they lack an understanding of cinema and visual language. I love Lynch and his work very much, but I think he could've become one of them if he didn't have the eye to bring his vision to life.

Between the the cynicism, lack of reality in some parts, and scenes that could've, or did, easily fallen in to the so bad it's good category - I think some parts of The Return suffer from this change in the way we engage with entertainment. Example #1 is Dougie Jones, but I also think of "Just You and I" making a return.

Which gets to the point of this thread, do you think that The Return was made with sincerity and a love in mind, was it a complete exercise in trolling, or a combination of the two. As everyone probably knows by now, I'm in the sincere and liked it camp. While I think there were some things that were there to "troll" us, it seems like a piece born of sincerity and love. Maybe not exactly the things people loved about the original run, but things that Lynch and Frost loved and wanted to get out in the world.

This post is also not to dismiss any other criticisms of The Return, just interested in how people view it. If the post doesn't make as much sense as it does in my head, I'd love responses and the ability to clarify further(it's already been a long day).

Anyone who can imagine that Mark and David would dedicate years of their lives toward preparing and producing a story intended to troll the very people that have spanned decades showering their works with praise while discussing and yearning for more Twin Peaks must be in an extremely negative state of mind.

I believe the work is sincere, and that it is a gift.

There isn't a completely sincere option.

- Mordeen

Mordeen wrote:There isn't a completely sincere option.

- Mordeen

Poll has been updated.

bowisneski wrote:

Mordeen wrote:There isn't a completely sincere option.

- Mordeen

Poll has been updated.

Thanks!

- Mordeen

I wouldn't call it trolling, but I do believe they tried to jab fans in the gut by not giving them what they wanted or expected. It was taken to absurd lengths with Dougie - having the main character not only not being himself but not even knowing how to pee. You can fit this into the overall theme of things changing over time and the times of old being gone and not able to be revisited; that's very present in the show. What once was warm and comforting has now become stale, silly, and absurd. The scene with Andy waiting for the promised appointment with the suspect is kind of a microcosm of the show - waiting for something that will never come (and so it is for life itself). The fact that nothing adds up is representative of life too. The show plays with the idea that all of it could be random chance or a guiding force could be behind things.

That's a charitable view of the show, that it was sincere. I still haven't done a complete rewatch to know if my more positive views compared to when it aired are warranted. A more negative view says that Lynch didn't know or care what to do with the show and fell back on old, stale ideas sitting in his shoebox, and called it "TP". That could also be viewed as a positive in a free, loosey-goosey sense.

The word trolling is obnoxious in the first place. Sure, there was "trolling" in The Return, but that doesn't mean it wasn't 100% sincere in that it homed in on a set of themes and made the exact thing that fit those themes, the exact thing that needed to be made/said rather than what we wanted to be made. Of course it is 100% sincere, and that especially applies to every aspect of Dougie.

LateReg wrote:The word trolling is obnoxious in the first place. Sure, there was "trolling" in The Return, but that doesn't mean it wasn't 100% sincere in that it homed in on a set of themes and made the exact thing that fit those themes, the exact thing that needed to be made/said rather than what we wanted to be made. Of course it is 100% sincere, and that especially applies to every aspect of Dougie.

I just went with trolling as more of a shorthand since that seems to be the word that is easily associated with what people have talked of The Return doing in scenes where it tested viewer patience and it was believed it was done knowingly just for fun with no other reason or withholding "good" Cooper to antagonize fans. My view is that there was a little bit of that but nearly all of it was just what they wanted to do and they didn't even really think about the viewer.

after seeing the results of the poll, i feel so much better.

I felt it to be completely sincere. There is so many qualities to it that makes me enjoy the third season more than the first two seasons. However, I still like Season 1 and the first part of Season 2 better.

But the Third Season granted answers to several questions that were left out. 3 of the 4 pages of the diary. and such. (where is the fourth?)

I particularly loved the full multi-format style of it all. It didn't keep me guessing like the first two seasons. Yet, it was more predictable. Some of the new character's kinda felt a bit off to the TP feel... but we are talking a 25 year difference.
i mean even in real life, 25 years a lot can happen... and a lot can change.
So this would reflect the different feeling it would be, which i was expecting. (however i was hoping for it to be kinda a 25 years later experience of just Twin Peaks, and hit us with several other locations... so i was hoping they would show somewhere in Nebraska... maybe Hummel Park... or as i just found out this morning... Jewell Park. Which has similar values as the 12 Sycamore trees.)

Anyways, Nebraska didn't show.

Though, I was mostly convinced that it will be quite long winded exposition. (not as much as the development from Parts 4-15. and clearly not as much as Part 18.

Part 18 was probably the only part that had me kinda disappointed, due to the sudden halt in activity... (when i rewatched it, it went a little faster... since i wasn't anticipating activity to happen. (the same thing happened to be during the full first season of the Monogatari Series... which with Monogatari series it is primarily dialog. and really avant garde for an anime series. yet the conversations were like authentic conversations, not abridged to fit into a minute or so slot... so i kinda built a tolerance to long windedness from this.)

from Parts 4-15 i was just anticipating that Part 15 Coop will come back... and have sorta grown fond of Dougie. The biggest enjoyment as some of you may already know, was Part 8. which kinda revitalized my values of the return. I knew then, what to expect.

I will not write a book on my thoughts of The Return... because i could...

So all in all, I feel it is completely sincere.

bowisneski wrote:

LateReg wrote:The word trolling is obnoxious in the first place. Sure, there was "trolling" in The Return, but that doesn't mean it wasn't 100% sincere in that it homed in on a set of themes and made the exact thing that fit those themes, the exact thing that needed to be made/said rather than what we wanted to be made. Of course it is 100% sincere, and that especially applies to every aspect of Dougie.

I just went with trolling as more of a shorthand since that seems to be the word that is easily associated with what people have talked of The Return doing in scenes where it tested viewer patience and it was believed it was done knowingly just for fun with no other reason or withholding "good" Cooper to antagonize fans. My view is that there was a little bit of that but nearly all of it was just what they wanted to do and they didn't even really think about the viewer.

Yeah, no doubt. Sorry, I didn't mean that against your use of the word here, but rather against the use of the word in general, precisely because, as you said, it is the word that was often being strewn about by those who felt duped by The Return. Critic Matt Zoller Seitz unleashed a tweet storm about this very thing, stating how angry it makes him to see so many think Lynch is trolling people when The Return possessed so much deep humanism.

LateReg wrote:Yeah, no doubt. Sorry, I didn't mean that against your use of the word here, but rather against the use of the word in general, precisely because, as you said, it is the word that was often being strewn about by those who felt duped by The Return. Critic Matt Zoller Seitz unleashed a tweet storm about this very thing, stating how angry it makes him to see so many think Lynch is trolling people when The Return possessed so much deep humanism.

No need to apologize, I just wanted to make sure that what I was implying with the word was clear. I totally agree though. I think trolling does exist, but it has sort of been watered down and over applied since the word came in to vogue. Another thing I've been thinking about recently is that if someone feels that they have been trolled by something, regardless of the intent of the person that took the action that lead to the feeling, that is what that person will come away with. Which then gets in to the question of how much the intent behind something matters once it is in the world.

Now, I'm gonna go search for that tweet thread.

bowisneski wrote:

LateReg wrote:Yeah, no doubt. Sorry, I didn't mean that against your use of the word here, but rather against the use of the word in general, precisely because, as you said, it is the word that was often being strewn about by those who felt duped by The Return. Critic Matt Zoller Seitz unleashed a tweet storm about this very thing, stating how angry it makes him to see so many think Lynch is trolling people when The Return possessed so much deep humanism.

No need to apologize, I just wanted to make sure that what I was implying with the word was clear. I totally agree though. I think trolling does exist, but it has sort of been watered down and over applied since the word came in to vogue. Another thing I've been thinking about recently is that if someone feels that they have been trolled by something, regardless of the intent of the person that took the action that lead to the feeling, that is what that person will come away with. Which then gets in to the question of how much the intent behind something matters once it is in the world.

Now, I'm gonna go search for that tweet thread.

Exactly what I was trying to say, thank you.

I think that David Lynch in particular is always sincere with his art. I think Twin Peaks is a mixed bag of emotions for him, but anyone probably would be in the same boat as him, with something so unique in it's presentation and what with the way that it in particular has been perceived by the general public during, later and currently. His art and personality has always been very distinct but very sincere. I feel like Frost wouldn't play around with his time either, enough to exact any touch of "trolling", he seems very much straight forward and a straight shooter. Maybe the way that these two men are is what makes the story seem to have a way of meeting in the middle, between the wonderful high of imagination but with a serious core, that it could feel like a bit of trolling is being done, to some of it's audience. Maybe that it also has Occult factions involved, it also lends to seeming that way, many people don't take a lot of that stuff with any seriousness, be it fate, luck and folk lore, etc.
But to answer the question, I pick totally sincere.
I guess I would think that David Lynch's sincerity would feel a bit different than any other, he is his own brand of being, to me.