Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

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Agent Earle
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:33 pm

LateReg wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
He might also be having pandemic-related financial issues, as many are. It’s a strange and trying time.


As of yet, there's none of those issues for me, but that may change soon, since in my European country, crypto-fascists have come into power just prior to the pandemic being declared, and it's expected they will use the crisis to implement total deconstruction of society as we know it, so there's no telling where we'll be even a month from now. It's no time to be alive in my corner of the world, but what can you do.


Shit. I'm sorry to hear that. Hang in there is all I can say, I suppose. I'm really sorry to hear that.


Thanks! Yeah, one never knows how good he has it until it all threatens to change in the blink of an eye. All may not be lost, as we have general elections in about two years, but I won't hold my breath with regards to their outcome - it's best to be prepared for the worst, since two months ago, no-one in the country counted for this horror to become a reality, and now look where we are. It's gonna be trying and long two years, that's for sure.
But enough about me; right now, there's people in the world getting very ill and losing their loved ones by the minute, so I should count myself lucky I'm not among them, at least not yet.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:51 pm

Very sorry to hear, Earle. Best wishes. Stay safe and healthy.
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby enumbs » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:42 pm

Agent Earle wrote: Since I'm not getting the Frost book due to current coronavirus crisis any time soon (the fact that frustrates me immensely), would you be so kind to share the information about Frost's possible elaborations about the characters of Windom Earle and Annie Blackburn? Does he even mention them, or go into details about why they got the short shrift in S3? Also, any mention of the reasons behind the absences of Michael Ontkean, Piper Laurie, Ray Wise (well, he was practically missing in S3!)? Any talk about MJA and Sherilyn Fenn dramas? Feel free to PM me if you want to avoid sharing spoilers with the rest of the board, I'll be infinitely grateful :)


I don't think he answered any of those questions unfortunately, except for perhaps giving his stock answer about Annie not coming up in discussions when writing season 3.

Frost did agree with Bushman that Audrey would probably have fulfilled Annie's role at the end of season 2, which is something I found quite interesting.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:54 pm

enumbs wrote:
Agent Earle wrote: Since I'm not getting the Frost book due to current coronavirus crisis any time soon (the fact that frustrates me immensely), would you be so kind to share the information about Frost's possible elaborations about the characters of Windom Earle and Annie Blackburn? Does he even mention them, or go into details about why they got the short shrift in S3? Also, any mention of the reasons behind the absences of Michael Ontkean, Piper Laurie, Ray Wise (well, he was practically missing in S3!)? Any talk about MJA and Sherilyn Fenn dramas? Feel free to PM me if you want to avoid sharing spoilers with the rest of the board, I'll be infinitely grateful :)


I don't think he answered any of those questions unfortunately, except for perhaps giving his stock answer about Annie not coming up in discussions when writing season 3.

Frost did agree with Bushman that Audrey would probably have fulfilled Annie's role at the end of season 2, which is something I found quite interesting.


Also, that the Red Room is in Mark’s mind an antechamber to the Black Lodge (comparing it to Dante’s levels of Hell). He flatly rejects the proposal that one could access the White Lodge from the Red Room, and says the Fireman’s chambers are “probably the closest approximation” of the White Lodge we’ve seen.
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Soolsma
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby Soolsma » Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:51 am

it
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
enumbs wrote:
Agent Earle wrote: Since I'm not getting the Frost book due to current coronavirus crisis any time soon (the fact that frustrates me immensely), would you be so kind to share the information about Frost's possible elaborations about the characters of Windom Earle and Annie Blackburn? Does he even mention them, or go into details about why they got the short shrift in S3? Also, any mention of the reasons behind the absences of Michael Ontkean, Piper Laurie, Ray Wise (well, he was practically missing in S3!)? Any talk about MJA and Sherilyn Fenn dramas? Feel free to PM me if you want to avoid sharing spoilers with the rest of the board, I'll be infinitely grateful :)


I don't think he answered any of those questions unfortunately, except for perhaps giving his stock answer about Annie not coming up in discussions when writing season 3.

Frost did agree with Bushman that Audrey would probably have fulfilled Annie's role at the end of season 2, which is something I found quite interesting.


Also, that the Red Room is in Mark’s mind an antechamber to the Black Lodge (comparing it to Dante’s levels of Hell). He flatly rejects the proposal that one could access the White Lodge from the Red Room, and says the Fireman’s chambers are “probably the closest approximation” of the White Lodge we’ve seen.


It still very much confuses me how droolcup and the giant appeared in the red room then. And even though some quotes by Mark point to an obvious ambiguity in his (their) nature:

From AMA: "The Fireman has his own reasons which are almost certainly too abstract and unfathomable for us to grasp."
From TSHOTP: "We are utterly incapable of knowing their true intent"

in every other instance the giant/fireman and the white lodge itself always struck me as inherently 'good'. Actually, all of his actions seem to be of a friendly nature: aiding Cooper, warning him for the events that ultimately lead him to the Red Room, briefing Andy, sending Laura, opposing Judy and BOB, the list goes on. Also, Earle clearly states how the white lodge and black lodge are polarized in terms of good and evil. Similar questions have of course been raised about Gerard's nature, though he still strikes me as an evil creature. Him aiding Cooper was IMHO mostly because of his rivalry with BOB.

What I think it all boils down to, was that the Fireman appearing in the (revised s2 finale) Red Room was sheerly Lynch's vision, and a spark of imagination at that. Mark then chose to run with this ambiguity to maintain that level of mystery. In every other way, the Fireman is still a saint.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:03 pm

Mark says that “a lot” of the Las Vegas material and the Dougie “comedy of errors” came from him.
baxter
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby baxter » Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:24 pm

I'm sure I remember reading an interview with him where he said that his first idea for bringing the show back was Cooper materialising in the empty house in Las Vegas. I can't remember the source.

My theory since then has been that Mark Frost wanted to focus partly on the US situation after the financial crisis, and I guess this surfaced also in Jacoby's arc.
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:28 am

baxter wrote:I'm sure I remember reading an interview with him where he said that his first idea for bringing the show back was Cooper materialising in the empty house in Las Vegas. I can't remember the source.

My theory since then has been that Mark Frost wanted to focus partly on the US situation after the financial crisis, and I guess this surfaced also in Jacoby's arc.


I remember that interview too. And yes, in the book, he mentions the financial crisis as a theme the show was meant to explore.
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:57 pm

Finally digging into the chapter on TR (after having flipped around in it and read the tidbits in the forums here). It’s interesting that Frost, who had no real involvement in FWWM, was the one who advocated for Desmond’s return.

He says Lynch didn’t show Frost anything in post, but Duwayne would occasionally show him a scene when Mark was in town.

For all the theorizing and analyzing (myself included) about the differences between doppelgängers and tulpas, Mark calls the concepts “close to interchangeable.” :lol:

He says Lynch had no idea who or what Judy was, so Mark did the legwork in discovering the name Joudy in a list of Sumerian/Babylonian deities/demons. (Not to call him a liar, but I still can’t find a source for this name being mentioned in any ancient texts, and Google results are all about TP.) He also straight up comes out and says that the P8/box entity is Joudy, after being a little cagey about it earlier in the chapter (he says L/F had a codename for it he won’t reveal). It’s strange that he’s so hesitant to spell most things out, but feels comfortable saying that the entity is Joudy and that 1956 girl is Sarah.

FWIW, I take his answer about Mr. C’s phone call as pretty definitely stating that the person on the other end of the line is Judy/Joudy impersonating Jeffries in order to find Briggs.

Bushman spends a full two pages trying to press Mark on what Bushman perceives as a discrepancy between Sarah’s situation in TR (particularly that 1956 flashback) and the present day of the original show and FWWM (Bushman is certainly speaking for many fans who feel the same way, although I agree with Mark that there isn’t necessarily any contradiction). Mark repeatedly either dodges the question or tersely says he doesn’t see a contradiction, before finally saying it doesn’t seem like a conflict to him “for some reason” with no further explanation. I do think Bushman probably pushed a bit too hard on this point when Mark was clearly over it, and Frost’s answers become a lot more terse after that. Still great, interesting stuff though. Mark seems overall very pleased by the final product of TR (even calling it the most satisfying season for him at one point), even while clearly being somewhat ambivalent about some of the more obscure choices Lynch made in a few scenes.
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby vicksvapor77 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:00 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:FWIW, I take his answer about Mr. C’s phone call as pretty definitely stating that the person on the other end of the line is Judy/Joudy impersonating Jeffries in order to find Briggs.


I'm curious why you think that? Not disagreeing, would just love more of your thoughts on it. I remember the big theory that it was Grace Zabriskie doing the voice on the phone but I guess I've never thought that hard about Joudy trying to find Briggs.
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:39 pm

vicksvapor77 wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:FWIW, I take his answer about Mr. C’s phone call as pretty definitely stating that the person on the other end of the line is Judy/Joudy impersonating Jeffries in order to find Briggs.


I'm curious why you think that? Not disagreeing, would just love more of your thoughts on it. I remember the big theory that it was Grace Zabriskie doing the voice on the phone but I guess I've never thought that hard about Joudy trying to find Briggs.


Just process of elimination. I think the most logical theories have been that it’s either Jeffries or Judy. Mark confirmed explicitly that it’s not actually Jeffries.

He also drops one further tidbit: the caller is trying to get info from Mr. C to gain access to someone’s location. I took this to mean Judy is trying to find Briggs (who’s part of the key opposition against her along with Cooper and Cole, and by far the most powerful of the three). The caller explicitly mentions that Mr. C was with Briggs. As we’ve seen, despite Mr. C killing Briggs, his disembodied head lives on and seems to continue to be a threat to Judy. Maybe she thinks Mr. C has further insight about how to locate and destroy Briggs.

It’s also possible that Mark means the caller is trying to gain info to Bob’s location, which would keep Mike in play as a candidate (another theory I’ve read), but given the NY reference, I find Judy much more likely (recall that the glass box was financed by Mr. C....I see the line “I missed you in NY” as a taunt about the fact that she escaped his trap).
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby LateReg » Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:33 am

vicksvapor77 wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:FWIW, I take his answer about Mr. C’s phone call as pretty definitely stating that the person on the other end of the line is Judy/Joudy impersonating Jeffries in order to find Briggs.


I'm curious why you think that? Not disagreeing, would just love more of your thoughts on it. I remember the big theory that it was Grace Zabriskie doing the voice on the phone but I guess I've never thought that hard about Joudy trying to find Briggs.


Just to be clear, Judy and Sarah/Grace Zabriskie would be one and the same in this case, right? I also hadn't thought much about Briggs being sought, though I can't remember all the dialogue at this point. The "I will be with Bob again" line is what I had mostly focused on.
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby Soolsma » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:50 am

Quickly copied this from a subtitle file for reference.

00:36:33,140 --> 00:36:34,470
Phillip?

260
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:35,970
You're late.

261
00:36:35,970 --> 00:36:37,810
Couldn't be helped.

262
00:36:37,810 --> 00:36:39,640
I missed you in New York,

263
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,510
but I see you're still in Buckhorn.

264
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:44,390
And you're still nowhere, is that correct?

265
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,930
You met with Major Garland Briggs.

266
00:36:49,860 --> 00:36:51,450
How did you know that?

267
00:36:53,740 --> 00:36:55,120
Phillip?

268
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,540
Actually, I just called to say good-bye.

269
00:37:01,670 --> 00:37:04,330
This is Phillip Jeffries, right?

270
00:37:04,340 --> 00:37:06,010
You're going back in tomorrow,

271
00:37:06,010 --> 00:37:08,500
and I will be with Bob again.

272
00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:10,340
Who is this?

Actually, I think the voice on the phone was David Lynch. But that's just my personal belief. Just like he most likely voiced TEOTA. Pretty sure the story is meant to imply it's Judy on the phone.

And @ Latereg: I certainly wouldn't call them one and the same, like I wouldn't call Leland and BOB one and the same. Besides, I still believe the Jumping Man is more entangled in all this than what would be apparent on the surface. I think he is the frog moth, and that what inhabited Sarah in the first place. In turn he can act as a talisman to channel Judy.
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby eyeboogers » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:47 am

Soolsma wrote:Actually, I think the voice on the phone was David Lynch. But that's just my personal belief. Just like he most likely voiced TEOTA. Pretty sure the story is meant to imply it's Judy on the phone.


Many months ago I tried my best with sound editing soundware to see if any secrets could be uncovered that way. I can't say for sure if it's Zabrieskie's voice or not, but it's definitely not Lynch, and once the vocal distortion gets cleaned up a bit it is possible to notice shades of a somewhat strong southern accent. Which we know Grace can do, but which I've never heard from Lynch.
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Re: Season 3, The First Draft - Speculation etc.

Postby LateReg » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:44 am

Soolsma wrote:Quickly copied this from a subtitle file for reference.

00:36:33,140 --> 00:36:34,470
Phillip?

260
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:35,970
You're late.

261
00:36:35,970 --> 00:36:37,810
Couldn't be helped.

262
00:36:37,810 --> 00:36:39,640
I missed you in New York,

263
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,510
but I see you're still in Buckhorn.

264
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:44,390
And you're still nowhere, is that correct?

265
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,930
You met with Major Garland Briggs.

266
00:36:49,860 --> 00:36:51,450
How did you know that?

267
00:36:53,740 --> 00:36:55,120
Phillip?

268
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,540
Actually, I just called to say good-bye.

269
00:37:01,670 --> 00:37:04,330
This is Phillip Jeffries, right?

270
00:37:04,340 --> 00:37:06,010
You're going back in tomorrow,

271
00:37:06,010 --> 00:37:08,500
and I will be with Bob again.

272
00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:10,340
Who is this?

Actually, I think the voice on the phone was David Lynch. But that's just my personal belief. Just like he most likely voiced TEOTA. Pretty sure the story is meant to imply it's Judy on the phone.

And @ Latereg: I certainly wouldn't call them one and the same, like I wouldn't call Leland and BOB one and the same. Besides, I still believe the Jumping Man is more entangled in all this than what would be apparent on the surface. I think he is the frog moth, and that what inhabited Sarah in the first place. In turn he can act as a talisman to channel Judy.


Thanks for that. What I meant by one and the same is that, in terms of the phone call, if we are talking about Judy, then we mean Sarah/Grace. I didn't mean it plotwise, but rather as a determination of whose voice it may be, in response to vicksvapor's wording (talking about Grace's voice and then transitioning into talking about Joudy). But perhaps you're saying that Judy is not necessarily in Sarah yet? And therefore the voice may not necessarily be Grace's after all and could simply be Judy's and therefore voiced by an unknown? I can see that. I was just thinking Judy would already be in Sarah the whole time. But obviously, we hear Bob speak in his own voice throughout the series.

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