Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

[Hester Prynne]

Wait, wait... Andy moves the chair?!? Really? I totally missed it!




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Yes! Moves the chair into position so Mr. C can sit down. Watch him do it. It's very interesting.

I had never thought of this either. This was a great catch! I've rewatched this episode a number of times, and it was such a minor moment, that I completely missed the significance of it, but it does seem like he's "positioning" Mr. C right after he remembers the vision of placing Lucy in the hall outside of the doorway.

[Hester Prynne]

OMG, my head hurts You’re onto something, and the idea of (a) Cooper not knowing that Laura is dead is mindblowing.
I think that with lots of patience, coffee, donuts, and resilience we should begin listing Cooper’s deals in TP:TR trying later to build a sort of timeline, removing Dougie from the equation for now.

Also, a question. I was re-watching on youtube Diane and Cooper arriving at the 430 “portal” in the desert. Is that the same place that Cooper sees from the black lodge ?

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Thanks - I am having a flashback of Doc from Back to the Future. Initially when I watched, I thought he was in some kind of time loop as other posters have mentioned - that once he went back and changed the past, he was "reset" back into the timeline and repeated the events of the Red Room which had been altered by his actions, but maybe this is a separate Cooper altogether.

I think the location where Cooper and Diane are traveling is different. It looks more southwest than South Dakota which is where Mr. C was traveling when Cooper was getting ready to exit the Lodge. This is probably over analyzing, but I'd love to get a close up of some of the road signs. They look like generic "do not pass" signs and nothing important, but I couldn't zoom in to get a good look. A couple of other things - Cooper looks at his watch for some reason when he's checking out the 430 spot, and the steering wheel on his car is moving like crazy, but when they cross over, it's barely moving.

[Hester Prynne]

I like where your head’s at, Hester, although I’m not crazy about your idea that the Laura scene was repeated solely for the audience’s benefit. The Red Room scenes were carefully re-edited between the Part 2 version and the Part 17 version. Are people generally aware that some of the “repeated” footage (notably the Leland and Laura scenes) are alternate angles (and in the case of Leland, I believe, an alternate take entirely?). The Laura scene in Part 17 cuts in to the close-up earlier, and Cooper says “Huh?” at an earlier point than in the Part 2 version (the point when he says it in Part 2 is silent in Part 17). This was obviously a conscious editing/foley decision. Not sure how much we’re supposed to read into it, but I do think this is more than a simple flashback/refresher (especially given that sequence’s obvious importance, with the end credits seeming to draw that whisper out into eternity).

None of which is meant to negate your theory, which I otherwise quite like!

I agree - it doesn't seem like something DKL would do. But there's the flashback to Season 2 when The Arm asks Cooper if he remembers his doppelgänger, which I interpreted to be Cooper's memory of events, but it also came across to me as sort of an odd recap (as if we could have forgotten). As a parallel, maybe this version of Laura whispering to Cooper is a memory triggered by the Arm's question about the little girl that lived down the lane. This is a bit of a leap, but maybe this is what happened to Cooper in this timeline 25 years ago as opposed to a confrontation with his doppelgänger. We just don't know what Laura said or what the circumstances were surrounding this Cooper getting stuck in the Lodge. I agree that there are definitely subtle differences in some of the repeated footage, and the encounter with Leland definitely plays out in this timeline, except Cooper approaches him from a different direction.

[Mr. Reindeer]

Good point on the repeated footage from Episode 29. Definite food for thought.

[yaxomoxay]

Wait, wait... Andy moves the chair?!? Really? I totally missed it!




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Yes! Moves the chair into position so Mr. C can sit down. Watch him do it. It's very interesting.

Ok, you caused me to re-watch good portions of 17 and 18, which means my wife’s rolling her eyes and a stare that not even the Giant in the It is Happening Again scene.

At any rate, wow. You are 100% correct. It is clear that Andy puts the chair in a very precise spot. Then he asks the question that determines the truth: “Would you like some coffee Agent Cooper?”.
So yes, that reality is somewhat manipulated by the Fireman through “inspired” actions as an exegesis student would say. Probably, by putting the chair in that spot Andy indirectly puts Lucy where she should be.
This brings another question about Andy’s Fireman induced vision. He clearly sees Laura in FWWM with the Angels on her side. This leads me to believe that FWWM’s ending is the true ending of the story, and that it actually happened. I am lead to believe that the Richard universe is nothing else than Laura getting free from the spirits of the Black Lodge and the pain and sorrow of her life and death. Of course this comes at a heavy cost (Cooper destroying his own soul). Now I wonder why Mr. Teapot Jeffreys tells Cooper “You will find Judy here.”


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[Xavi]

After his visit at The Fireman, Andy's words and acts are in perfect sync with the tiniest details in the universe. The Fireman did not show him a vision, albeit showed him the future.

If words and acts form such amazing unity and synchronisation then a god-like existence has befallen upon you. This also happened after Dale Cooper woke up from his coma in the hospital. Also the three Andie's show a similar behaviour. No question for me about the moment when Dale Cooper met the Fireman as was being shown in the very first scene.

[chromereflectsimage]

I like where your head’s at, Hester, although I’m not crazy about your idea that the Laura scene was repeated solely for the audience’s benefit. The Red Room scenes were carefully re-edited between the Part 2 version and the Part 17 version. Are people generally aware that some of the “repeated” footage (notably the Leland and Laura scenes) are alternate angles (and in the case of Leland, I believe, an alternate take entirely?). The Laura scene in Part 17 cuts in to the close-up earlier, and Cooper says “Huh?” at an earlier point than in the Part 2 version (the point when he says it in Part 2 is silent in Part 17). This was obviously a conscious editing/foley decision. Not sure how much we’re supposed to read into it, but I do think this is more than a simple flashback/refresher (especially given that sequence’s obvious importance, with the end credits seeming to draw that whisper out into eternity).

None of which is meant to negate your theory, which I otherwise quite like!

I agree - it doesn't seem like something DKL would do. But there's the flashback to Season 2 when The Arm asks Cooper if he remembers his doppelgänger, which I interpreted to be Cooper's memory of events, but it also came across to me as sort of an odd recap (as if we could have forgotten). As a parallel, maybe this version of Laura whispering to Cooper is a memory triggered by the Arm's question about the little girl that lived down the lane. This is a bit of a leap, but maybe this is what happened to Cooper in this timeline 25 years ago as opposed to a confrontation with his doppelgänger. We just don't know what Laura said or what the circumstances were surrounding this Cooper getting stuck in the Lodge. I agree that there are definitely subtle differences in some of the repeated footage, and the encounter with Leland definitely plays out in this timeline, except Cooper approaches him from a different direction.

On the BTS extras, it shows the Fireman in the red room as the one asking Cooper if he remembers. Then Lynch gives the direction "stop and face the curtains. And the curtains disappear. And you look deep into that darkness."

I wonder why this was changed so that the arm asks him if he remembers instead? One of those questions we'll probably never get the answer too, but it's interesting they included that footage in the extras as it didn't appear in the show.

[Mr. Reindeer]

I’m glad they kept the Fireman solely in B&W. It would have been weird to have one random shot of him in color. I wonder if DKL was trying to get coverage of flesh and blood actors delivering EotA’s most important lines just in case he couldn’t come up with a CGI design he was happy with.

[Hester Prynne]

I haven't seen the movie or read the novel yet, but I feel like The Little Girl that Lived Down the Lane may have more significance to TR than just a line DKL threw in and had repeated by a couple of characters. If the story was about a young girl that killed most of the characters who entered her "house" when all she wanted was to be left alone, isn't it similar to what is happening with Carrie Page and her comment that she "tried to keep a clean house?" I think there's a connection, too, with the Fireman saying, "it is in our house now."

When we meet Carrie, she has already killed one person in her house, in addition to an orb, and we all saw how difficult it was to kill Bob in the previous episode, but it appears Carrie was able to do this without too much trouble. We also see the rolls of paper towels, vacuum cleaner, and several buckets in the house tying into her comment about trying to keep her house clean.

Is it possible the Fireman was referring to the Palmer house, and Carrie was sent there to "clean" the house? Also, someone who has seen the movie can correct me, but I think I read where the father of the little girl committed suicide, and the little girl killed her mother. In the timeline where Laura lived and went missing, wasn't it written that Leland committed suicide years later? And if Carrie was sent to destroy Judy, isn't she also killing her/Laura's mother?

I don't know if Cooper was aware of his actions in this reality, but maybe he actually succeeded, thinking that he failed because he thought his only mission was to simply return Laura Palmer home.

[claaa7]

Wait, wait... Andy moves the chair?!? Really? I totally missed it!

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Yes! Moves the chair into position so Mr. C can sit down. Watch him do it. It's very interesting.

Ok, you caused me to re-watch good portions of 17 and 18, which means my wife’s rolling her eyes and a stare that not even the Giant in the It is Happening Again scene.

At any rate, wow. You are 100% correct. It is clear that Andy puts the chair in a very precise spot. Then he asks the question that determines the truth: “Would you like some coffee Agent Cooper?”.
So yes, that reality is somewhat manipulated by the Fireman through “inspired” actions as an exegesis student would say. Probably, by putting the chair in that spot Andy indirectly puts Lucy where she should be.
This brings another question about Andy’s Fireman induced vision. He clearly sees Laura in FWWM with the Angels on her side. This leads me to believe that FWWM’s ending is the true ending of the story, and that it actually happened. I am lead to believe that the Richard universe is nothing else than Laura getting free from the spirits of the Black Lodge and the pain and sorrow of her life and death. Of course this comes at a heavy cost (Cooper destroying his own soul). Now I wonder why Mr. Teapot Jeffreys tells Cooper “You will find Judy here.”

Wow this is a really great catch LateReg! i hadn't given it much thought that Andy is positioning the chair but he clearly does and like Yaxomoxay says Andy's coffee question probably alerts him that something is wrong and unconsciousally remembering, causing him to say "Very important" which has her staying in her place to take the call from the Good Cooper. some viewers said that Naido seemed out of place in the Fireman'/Andy vision, but remember that Andy goes directly down from there to free Naido / Diane from the cell. i think it's kind of neat the Fireman vision played out the way that it did as Andy symbolically placed Lucy in that position, freed Naido and made it possible for Cooper to "find Laura".

[claaa7]

there have been some really good conversations and theories put forward in this thread, its lovely the way the show inspire us to dig deep into our own selves and put the pieces together as we see them fit.

i have been thinking about why Cooper is "rescuing" Laura Palmer at the end. why is this so important to him when we consider that he's an FBI agent who has been involved in cases concerning many dead people. some amongst the Disappointed Group has seen this as particularily bad writing and out of character for Cooper. i disagree with this and I think the relationship between Laura Palmer and Dale Cooper became something different than "Agent solving case of dead girl" by the time of Fire Walk With Me. there it was evident that their relationship was something very deep in a metaphysical sense. it might not be a stretch to call them twin souls.

they constantly communicated with each other through their respective dreams, both before and after death / red room imprisonement. the scene with Albert and Dale in FWWM is important in this regard, they were so closely spiritually connected that he could tell what she was doing at that very exact moment in time (doing the meals on wheels). and of course by the end of the movie, they are united, Cooper a reassuring presence helping to guide Laura towards the light and her angel. i Think he is mentioned one or two times in "The Secret Diary of Laura Palmer" book to, but can't remember whether or not its in the Cooper bio.

i'm not really sure yet, but there is definitely something there.. something deep hidden within that relationship.

[yaxomoxay]

there have been some really good conversations and theories put forward in this thread, its lovely the way the show inspire us to dig deep into our own selves and put the pieces together as we see them fit.

i have been thinking about why Cooper is "rescuing" Laura Palmer at the end. why is this so important to him when we consider that he's an FBI agent who has been involved in cases concerning many dead people. some amongst the Disappointed Group has seen this as particularily bad writing and out of character for Cooper. i disagree with this and I think the relationship between Laura Palmer and Dale Cooper became something different than "Agent solving case of dead girl" by the time of Fire Walk With Me. there it was evident that their relationship was something very deep in a metaphysical sense. it might not be a stretch to call them twin souls.

they constantly communicated with each other through their respective dreams, both before and after death / red room imprisonement. the scene with Albert and Dale in FWWM is important in this regard, they were so closely spiritually connected that he could tell what she was doing at that very exact moment in time (doing the meals on wheels). and of course by the end of the movie, they are united, Cooper a reassuring presence helping to guide Laura towards the light and her angel. i Think he is mentioned one or two times in "The Secret Diary of Laura Palmer" book to, but can't remember whether or not its in the Cooper bio.

i'm not really sure yet, but there is definitely something there.. something deep hidden within that relationship.

I think that the importance of Laura became evident to Coop himself as soon as he had a chance to visit Twin Peaks. His comment on the yellow light meaning slowing down instead of going faster implicates the extraordinary nature of the investigation of Laura’s death.


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[Xavi]

One of the quintessential events in TPS3 is Laura Palmer visiting the Red Room, as was predicted 25 years ago. Then she disappears and next Leland asks Cooper to find Laura. Laura was dead, wasn't she? So the only possible locations for her residence in such state would be ... 1. The Giant's 2. The Mauve World, or 3. The Red Room and adjacent realms, like Above The Convenience Store. She was in none of these worlds, but she also told Cooper that she was dead and alive at the same time. What other options did Cooper have than to ask Phillip Jeffries, a former FBI-agent "who doesn't really exist anymore, at least not in the normal sense" ?

Now, why did Laura appear in the Red Room anyway? The answer is as simple as the maddening consequences of temporal particle entanglement in quantum mechanics, which sheds a whole new light on past and future. She returned to save agent Cooper, and this action disrupts cause and effect, because Cooper first had to find her before she could rescue him.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/time-entanglement-raises-quantum-mysteries-20160119/

[yaxomoxay]

One of the quintessential events in TPS3 is Laura Palmer visiting the Red Room, as was predicted 25 years ago. Then she disappears and next Leland asks Cooper to find Laura. Laura was dead, wasn't she? So the only possible locations for her residence in such state would be ... 1. The Giant's 2. The Mauve World, or 3. The Red Room and adjacent realms, like Above The Convenience Store. She was in none of these worlds, but she also told Cooper that she was dead and alive at the same time. What other options did Cooper have than to ask Phillip Jeffries, a former FBI-agent "who doesn't really exist anymore, at least not in the normal sense" ?

Now, why did Laura appear in the Red Room anyway? The answer is as simple as the maddening consequences of temporal particle entanglement in quantum mechanics, which sheds a whole new light on past and future. She returned to save agent Cooper, and this action disrupts cause and effect, because Cooper first had to find her before she could rescue him.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/time-entanglement-raises-quantum-mysteries-20160119/

Thank you for letting me know about the existence of Quanta Magazine! That’s like Nerdy x 1,000,000,000 ... which is good!


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[krishnanspace]

I just finished my first rewatch yesterday.Some thoughts I wanted to share:
Cooper is still stuck in the Red Room

My theory is that the whole Season has been about Cooper reliving his past experience of saving Laura.In Part 17,the Superimposed Cooper is the real(Current Timeline) Cooper who is remembering his past experience, its like a dream or a vision he is having while in the Red Room.The Current Cooper is aware that this is all a dream and that he will fail his mission.
The last scene of the Return shows Laura whispering something to Coop and he is disturbed by Laura whispered.What I think she told him is something like, "How many times have you tried saving me?" and this triggers something in Cooper and he is remembering the time he saved Laura.So whatever that happened in Season 3 is not all a dream.It happened the way it was shown at one point in time,but its just all a flashback Coop is having while sitting in the Red Room.