General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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baxter
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby baxter » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:38 pm

I'm now up to part 5 in my rewatch, having binged 3-4 and 5 last night. My mindset in the rewatch was based on one thing, and one thig only: EMBRACE DOUGIE! Every episode first time round was watched with a massive desire to see Cooper return, to such an extent that I couldn't take it in properly.

I know others have said this, but I really like Dougie second time round. I notice a lot more Cooper in him than I did before, right from the start. When he smiles at the old lady in the casino having just made her happy, it is pure Cooper (previously I found that scene dragged on way too long). I also find the office scenes funnier, even though I know what's coming. This whole setup now strikes me as clever, and the correct thing to do. I can no really see Cooper there, and trying to wrap his mind round the world again, which is what it should look like after 25 years of craziness. It also amplifies Cooper's heroism to me. Maybe he is the only agent that has successfully made it back?
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mtwentz
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:27 am

baxter wrote:I'm now up to part 5 in my rewatch, having binged 3-4 and 5 last night. My mindset in the rewatch was based on one thing, and one thig only: EMBRACE DOUGIE! Every episode first time round was watched with a massive desire to see Cooper return, to such an extent that I couldn't take it in properly.

I know others have said this, but I really like Dougie second time round. I notice a lot more Cooper in him than I did before, right from the start. When he smiles at the old lady in the casino having just made her happy, it is pure Cooper (previously I found that scene dragged on way too long). I also find the office scenes funnier, even though I know what's coming. This whole setup now strikes me as clever, and the correct thing to do. I can no really see Cooper there, and trying to wrap his mind round the world again, which is what it should look like after 25 years of craziness. It also amplifies Cooper's heroism to me. Maybe he is the only agent that has successfully made it back?


In my opinion, the scene with Dougie, Janey-E and the Fusco Brothers in Part 7 is just the height of hilarity in the Dougie storyline. I keep going back to that scene over and over. It's all very subtle but it really works for me.
"Dougie is COOPER? How the Hell is this!?"
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Jerry Horne
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Jerry Horne » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:27 pm

I'm not sure if this article has been mentioned yet, but there is some good stuff here. I think John Thorne is interviewing the author for the next issue of Blue Rose Magazine:

http://politicsslashletters.org/dreamer ... ks-return/
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Jasper
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Jasper » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:40 am

Jerry Horne wrote:I'm not sure if this article has been mentioned yet, but there is some good stuff here. I think John Thorne is interviewing the author for the next issue of Blue Rose Magazine:

http://politicsslashletters.org/dreamer ... ks-return/


Interesting....and long. Very, very long.

I don't know that I'd take this as the definitive reading (and the author says as much about the impossibility of definitive readings of the return), but it's certainly a good one worth keeping with other major theories. I agree that Dale Cooper is almost certainly the dreamer, and I believe that this is what we're probably being told by L&F. What I'm not so certain about is the manner in which Cooper is the dreamer. This article presents a very dark and troubling solution.

My own musings, as of late, haven't been nearly as disturbing, and have mostly centered around the unsolvable paradoxes of time travel, and the disorientation of that kind of travel, as well as possible interdimensional travel, dream reality, and plain old disturbances of the psyche. Not exactly sunshine and puppies, but it hasn't led me to fully embrace an idea quite as horrible as the one presented in the piece.
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Jerry Horne
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Jerry Horne » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:46 am

I actually wished it was longer. It's interesting, as I was reading this, I had a flashback to John Thorne's 'Dreams of Dear Meadow'. For those who haven't read it (read it!), he theorizes that the Dear Meadow section of FWWM is Cooper's dream. Kreider of course greatly expands upon this. I just asked John about all of this and he revealed to me that he plans on writing a new article next year reevaluating and expanding 'Dreams of Dear Meadow' in light of S4.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Hester Prynne » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:26 am

Jerry Horne wrote:I'm not sure if this article has been mentioned yet, but there is some good stuff here. I think John Thorne is interviewing the author for the next issue of Blue Rose Magazine:

http://politicsslashletters.org/dreamer ... ks-return/


Great article - will need to read it a few more times to capture everything.

The only part I'm a little lost on is his theory that Cooper is Laura's killer, but otherwise it's pretty comprehensive and includes a lot of ideas/theories others have shared on the forum. - Looking forward to John Thorne's interview.
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Jerry Horne
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Jerry Horne » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:42 am

I have to admit, I'm fixated on the 'Richard is the Dreamer' theory.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby eyeboogers » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:17 pm

Jerry Horne wrote:I have to admit, I'm fixated on the 'Richard is the Dreamer' theory.


The last scene completely debunks that though. They are teasing us with "Richard is the dreamer" for the entire hour, while Dale Cooper goes from fighting it to almost accepting it as the truth. The last minutes cements that no - it was all real. Laura, Dale, Twin Peaks. The big question is now what's next.
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Jerry Horne
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Jerry Horne » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:39 pm

What are your thoughts on Richard waking up in a different motel driving a different car? To me this possibly indicates that what we see before that is someones dream, most likely Richard's. But how far back does the dream go?
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eyeboogers
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby eyeboogers » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:51 pm

Jerry Horne wrote:What are your thoughts on Richard waking up in a different motel driving a different car? To me this possibly indicates that what we see before that is someones dream, most likely Richard's. But how far back does the dream go?


Cooper was warned about the time/identity confusion trap (Remember "Richard" and "Linda"). Still as the episode progressed both character and audience starts to lose faith, until at the very end it became clear that we were being Tremonded.
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Jerry Horne
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Jerry Horne » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:52 pm

I've learned to not be too sure about anything in the Twin Peaks Universe, but for today, I'll fall down the Kreider rabbit hole and theorize that The Fireman is warning a dreaming "Cooper" to remember his true self - "Richard". The more common theory is something I might ultimately stick with, but for today and until Thorne's new article comes out, I'm 100% sure I'm not sure.
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eyeboogers
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby eyeboogers » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:01 pm

Jerry Horne wrote:I'll fall down the Kreider rabbit hole and theorize that The Fireman is warning a dreaming "Cooper" to remember his true self - "Richard".


I'd buy that, if that was all the Fireman had said. But add "Remember 430" and "Two birds, one stone" to the mix and that doesn't seem to hold water. I never bought into John Thorne's Deer Meadow theory. He arrived at it directly after writing a near perfect analysis of "Mulholland Dr." and then tried to apply/force the same theory unto FWWM. Although Lynch likes to play around with similar themes and tricks, it would be beyond lazy of him to use the exact same mayor plot twist in two separate works. Also whenever Mark Frost has been discussing the series finale it tends to be about the folly of Cooper's hubris, more so than about who might be dreaming.
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Jasper
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Jasper » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:51 pm

Jerry Horne wrote:I actually wished it was longer.


Well, I was about to go to sleep, but I got stuck reading. :lol:

The article says, "This is the last time we’ll see the familiar cast of characters from Twin Peaks; the story we’ve watched since 1990 ends at this moment."

One point against this theory of Cooper/Richard dreaming (or imagining or hallucinating) pretty much all of Twin Peaks is the Final Dossier, which describes Twin Peaks characters after the timeline alteration.

While Lynch hasn't read the books and says that they’re Mark Frost’s personal take on things, I tend to believe that such a major plot point was something that they’d more or less figured out and agreed upon. We know from their comments (especially Frost’s) that between the two of them they worked very hard to craft a complete story that made consistent logical sense. Frost even described a time in the writing process where the intricacies became so great that they each had to take a few days off to make sure that what they'd come up with by that point made sense to each of them. I'm sure they'd have agreed on something as major as whether or not the town of Twin Peaks ended forever, and it doesn't seem that it did. It seems as though Dale Cooper actually altered the timeline.

The way I've been looking at things is that Cooper changes the timeline, so all of the characters up until that point are living in a time paradox. They both exist and don't exist. The events are both happening and never happened. Cooper made it so that the familiar timeline never existed, so everyone in it is leading a sort of fake existence, with the only lasting consciousness being Cooper's. For Cooper the original timeline remains something he experienced, though its events are gone, and in a sense never happened, like the events of a dream, while the other people in that timeline are, in a sense, unreal, like characters in a dream. Perhaps this is the reason that we might think of Cooper as the dreamer.

In FWWM, Cooper is seeing into one potential timeline when he intuits that the next victim is a blonde drug-abusing high school student, currently preparing a great abundance of food. What he predicts is both true and untrue, because he's looking into the timeline that he'll later alter and erase, leaving himself as the only one who's fully experienced it.

Jeffries appears in the Philadelphia office and makes his comment about living inside of a dream, and this happens before Cooper alters the timeline, but Jeffries is a man lost in time, and he doesn't even know what year it is. Because lodge time does not work as it does in the regular world, Jeffries could certainly go back before the timeline change and make his declaration. I'm not saying that this is what happened, but it's one possible explanation for why he'd say this before the timeline alteration.

We also have Carrie Page's behavior in part 18. When Cooper is at her home, he tells her that her father is Leland, which doesn't mean anything to her (maybe because that memory is more deeply repressed), but when he tells her that her mother is Sarah, she stutters, "S-Sarah?", and she hunches forward a bit and asks in a trembling voice, "What's going on?" (Cooper provides the understatement of the century when he responds, "It's...difficult to explain.")


When the pair arrive at the Palmer house we're greeted by a Tremond family that claims to have acquired the home from a Chalfont family. We know that the Tremonds and Chalfonts can temporarily replace real people in a mysterious manner. Donna Hayward makes a Meals on Wheels delivery one day and meets the Tremond grandmother and grandson. The next day, when she returns with Cooper and Andy, a different woman (named Tremond) is there, one who's presumably been there all along. From this we know that entities calling themselves Tremonds or Chalfonts can temporarily appear as the phantom residents of a home, only to disappear soon after (though in the original run and FWWM they replace people with the same name).

Interestingly, in that season two scene, a page from Laura's diary is recovered, and in it she recounts a dream that she had, which is the same dream that Cooper had in episode 2, and involves Laura whispering "the secret" into Cooper's ear. When Cooper notes that he and Laura had the same dream, Andy says, "That's impossible." Cooper replies, "Yes, it is."


So, are the Tremonds of part 18 only temporarily replacing Sarah at that moment, or are we in a "pocket universe" or a different dimension where things, whether real or illusory, are kind of the same, but also different (hence "Richard and Linda")? Could it be that meddling with the timeline has effects that ripple back in time as well as forward? To get as mundane as can be, could Sarah have moved out of the house long ago in the altered timeline, with the house changing hands twice in the interim? This almost certainly isn't the case, but if we're being thorough we've got to at least consider it as a possibility.

As eyeboogers has pointed out, the fact that Carrie Page, in the last moments of part 18, hears Sarah's voice (from the pilot) calling to her, and lets out a signature Laura Palmer scream, makes it very hard to believe that this is not, in fact, Laura Palmer. It may be an amnesiac Laura in the altered timeline, or a captive amnesiac Laura in a "pocket universe", or even an actual Carrie Page who is an alternative dimension version of Laura who in that moment experiences our Laura's trauma.
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krishnanspace
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby krishnanspace » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:03 pm

Personally the dream theory does not go well with me. Then it means that TSHOTP and TFD are all part of the dream
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N. Needleman
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby N. Needleman » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:07 pm

Like John Thorne's Deer Meadow dream, it's a great and interesting theory but not what I subscribe to at all re: Season 3.
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