The Random Season 3 Thread

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:13 pm

I have to respectfully disagree with Jerry. While I can understand Ray’s disappointment (and was myself disappointed that he didn’t get more to do), I don’t think an actor ever “deserves” anything from a production, other than what any employee deserves on any job (to feel safe, to get paid by the terms of the contract). Each actor is there in service of the greater work. Lynch is notorious for bringing in great actors to do very little (see Richard Pryor in LH, Richard Chamberlain in TP:TR, Nance’s glorified cameos in various films, half the cast of W@H). Again, I get Ray’s disappointment if he was led to believe the role was one thing and it ended up being much smaller, but that’s the way the writing process works. I just don’t see how he can feel owed a large role with great material simply because he had had a large role with great material last time (and undeniably did a tremendous job with it). Being given one gift doesn’t entitle you to a second one. L/F ultimately just didn’t have a lot to say about Leland this go-round.

I agree with yaxomay and LateReg that Leland’s function in the plot is key, particularly since it makes him and Cooper complicit in some way. Cooper’s entire mission—which arguably is horribly misguided and detrimental to Laura, depending on your interpretation—is undertaken at Leland’s instruction. Cooper allies himself with Laura’s abuser and killer, while the “other” Cooper on the outside is inhabited by Laura’s “other” abuser and killer. I love the symmetry, and the sense of coming full circle with the original show where Cooper’s initial mission was to reveal and capture the killer (Leland). Now hunter and hunted are in alliance, trying to make sense of events that they each set in motion but which have spiralled far beyond either of their understandings.

As for the Roadhouse scenes, other than all the reasons LateReg has listed for loving them (with which I wholeheartedly agree), I also feel that they return to the feel of the Pilot, which had a rather sprawling cast of mill workers, school principals, lawyers, doctors, etc. It really felt like a whole damn town, in a way that the series proper never quite did, as it came to focus on the same characters over and over in the somewhat claustrophobic way a network series in that era inevitably did. I love that TP:TR once again restores TP to feeling like a fully inhabited, functioning town, and the Roadhouse scenes are a huge part of that.
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AXX°N N.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby AXX°N N. » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:26 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:As for the Roadhouse scenes, other than all the reasons LateReg has listed for loving them (with which I wholeheartedly agree), I also feel that they return to the feel of the Pilot, which had a rather sprawling cast of mill workers, school principals, lawyers, doctors, etc. It really felt like a whole damn town, in a way that the series proper never quite did, as it inevitably came to focus on the same characters over and over in the somewhat claustrophobic way a network series in that era inevitably did. I love that TP:TR once again restores TP to feeling like a fully inhabited, functioning town, and the Roadhouse scenes are a huge part of that.

I remarked on this to my viewing partner while the Return was running. I had happened to read the Pilot script between the announcement and airing, and there was something very unique about it that even the final Pilot as completed didn't have, though it came closest. It was this sense of really fluid, really fragmented coming and going of characters that are not necesarilly conventionally characterized, but are more like potent symbols and representations. As if even the minor characters are deified or reified. The drugged-up mother is one example. The Return in a lot of ways feels like the first time the promise of what was in that script was realized, for me.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby LateReg » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:07 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I agree with yaxomay and LateReg that Leland’s function in the plot is key, particularly since it makes him and Cooper complicit in some way. Cooper’s entire mission—which arguably is horribly misguided and detrimental to Laura, depending on your interpretation—is undertaken at Leland’s instruction. Cooper allies himself with Laura’s abuser and killer, while the “other” Cooper on the outside is inhabited by Laura’s “other” abuser and killer. I love the symmetry, and the sense of coming full circle with the original show where Cooper’s initial mission was to reveal and capture the killer (Leland). Now hunter and hunted are in alliance, trying to make sense of events that they each set in motion but which have spiralled far beyond either of their understandings.

As for the Roadhouse scenes, other than all the reasons LateReg has listed for loving them (with which I wholeheartedly agree), I also feel that they return to the feel of the Pilot, which had a rather sprawling cast of mill workers, school principals, lawyers, doctors, etc. It really felt like a whole damn town, in a way that the series proper never quite did, as it came to focus on the same characters over and over in the somewhat claustrophobic way a network series in that era inevitably did. I love that TP:TR once again restores TP to feeling like a fully inhabited, functioning town, and the Roadhouse scenes are a huge part of that.


Woah. Incredible observations. I had obviously understood that Cooper/Leland were allied in the lodge, and had separately understood that Bad Coop is linked to BOB, but I'd never noticed the symmetry or even heard it talked about in that way. That's great.

And as echoed and expanded upon by Axxon below, the remarks about the pilot are fascinating, insightful and illuminating, and make perfect sense of Lynch/Frost intentions, as well as my own feelings on the matter. Great stuff.
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Jerry Horne
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Jerry Horne » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:17 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I have to respectfully disagree with Jerry. While I can understand Ray’s disappointment (and was myself disappointed that he didn’t get more to do), I don’t think an actor ever “deserves” anything from a production, other than what any employee deserves on any job (to feel safe, to get paid by the terms of the contract).


It's just my frustration that a great actor like Wise gets less screen time than someone scratching their armpit.

Let's hope that Ray talks openly about this someday.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby eyeboogers » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:58 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:L/F ultimately just didn’t have a lot to say about Leland this go-round.


It is understandable that Wise feels disappointed, and that we were all surprised by the near absence of Leland Palmer. I think he was expecting more, but I also think that at one point the creative team thought there would be more for him to do. Some of the clues dropped by the characters in "Between Two Worlds" don't seem to connect very well to what we eventually saw in TPTR. I think as the greater narrative arc come into focus, some proposed mythology elements were altered, and this led to whatever they had planned for Leland no longer making sense.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Hester Prynne » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:55 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote: I agree with yaxomay and LateReg that Leland’s function in the plot is key, particularly since it makes him and Cooper complicit in some way. Cooper’s entire mission—which arguably is horribly misguided and detrimental to Laura, depending on your interpretation—is undertaken at Leland’s instruction. Cooper allies himself with Laura’s abuser and killer, while the “other” Cooper on the outside is inhabited by Laura’s “other” abuser and killer. I love the symmetry, and the sense of coming full circle with the original show where Cooper’s initial mission was to reveal and capture the killer (Leland). Now hunter and hunted are in alliance, trying to make sense of events that they each set in motion but which have spiralled far beyond either of their understandings.


This is off topic and not related to Ray, but I wonder after reading above if Cooper went off mission in Ep. 18 and that’s what went wrong. We don’t really know what the Giant’s mission was for Coop, if there was one, so maybe Laura/Carrie was not supposed to be a part of it or maybe Carrie was supposed to be left alone. Diane transforms into Linda, but Coop is still Coop, although a different Coop that we see in the Judy’s diner scene - instead of doing what the Giant wants him to do - whatever that may be - he tries to help Leland “find Laura” and in turn, screws things up.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby yaxomoxay » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:07 pm

I'd say it's more than a mission. I am starting to believe that a dead Cooper is bringing a dead Laura to her new life (post-Carrie, which is intermediate).

The intermediate being who makes the passage in this way from one existence to the next is formed, like every living being, of the five aggregates (skandha). His existence is demonstrated by the fact that it cannot have any discontinuity in time and space between the place and moment of death and those of rebirth, and therefore it must be that the two existences belonging to the same series are linked in time and space by an intermediate stage. The intermediate being is the Gandharva, the presence of which is as necessary at conception as the fecundity and union of the parents. Furthermore, the Antaraparinirvayin is an Anagamin who obtains parinirvana during the intermediary existence. As for the heinous criminal guilty of one of the five crimes without interval (anantarya), he passes in quite the same way by an intermediate existence at the end of which he is reborn necessarily in hell.

What is an intermediate being, and an intermediate existence? Intermediate existence, which inserts itself between existence at death and existence at birth, not having arrived at the location where it should go, cannot be said to be born. Between death—that is, the five skandhas of the moment of death—and arising—that is, the five skandhas of the moment of rebirth—there is found an existence—a "body" of five skandhas—that goes to the place of rebirth. This existence between two realms of rebirth (gati) is called intermediate existence.

Also,
Used loosely, "bardo" is the state of existence intermediate between two lives on earth. According to Tibetan tradition, after death and before one's next birth, when one's consciousness is not connected with a physical body, one experiences a variety of phenomena. These usually follow a particular sequence of degeneration from, just after death, the clearest experiences of reality of which one is spiritually capable, and then proceeding to terrifying hallucinations that arise from the impulses of one's previous unskillful actions. For the prepared and appropriately trained individuals, the bardo offers a state of great opportunity for liberation, since transcendental insight may arise with the direct experience of reality; for others, it can become a place of danger as the karmically created hallucinations can impel one into a less than desirable rebirth.
Metaphorically, bardo can describe times when our usual way of life becomes suspended, as, for example, during a period of illness or during a meditation retreat. Such times can prove fruitful for spiritual progress because external constraints diminish. However, they can also present challenges because our less skillful impulses may come to the foreground, just as in the sidpa bardo.
The concept of antarabhava, an intervening state between death and rebirth, was brought into Buddhism from the Vedic-Upanishadic philosophical tradition which later developed into Hinduism.

The six bardos:
1 - Kyenay bardo (skye gnas bar do): is the first bardo of birth and life. This bardo commences from conception until the last breath, when the mindstream withdraws from the body.
2 - Milam bardo (rmi lam bar do): is the second bardo of the dream state. The Milam Bardo is a subset of the first Bardo. Dream Yoga develops practices to integrate the dream state into Buddhist sadhana.
3 - Samten bardo (bsam gtan bar do) is the third bardo of meditation. This bardo is generally only experienced by meditators, though individuals may have spontaneous experience of it. Samten Bardo is a subset of the Shinay Bardo.
4 - Chikhai bardo ('chi kha'i bar do): is the fourth bardo of the moment of death. According to tradition, this bardo is held to commence when the outer and inner signs presage that the onset of death is nigh, and continues through the dissolution or transmutation of the Mahabhuta until the external and internal breath has completed.
5 - Chonyi bardo (chos nyid bar do): is the fifth bardo of the luminosity of the true nature which commences after the final 'inner breath' (Sanskrit: prana, vayu; Tibetan: rlung). It is within this Bardo that visions and auditory phenomena occur. In the Dzogchen teachings, these are known as the spontaneously manifesting Thodgal (Tibetan: thod-rgyal) visions. Concomitant to these visions, there is a welling of profound peace and pristine awareness. Sentient beings who have not practiced during their lived experience and/or who do not recognize the clear light (Tibetan: od gsal) at the moment of death are usually deluded throughout the fifth bardo of luminosity.
6 - Sidpa bardo (srid pa bar do): is the sixth bardo of becoming or transmigration. This bardo endures until the inner-breath commences in the new transmigrating form determined by the "karmic seeds" within the storehouse consciousness.

Which can be described as,
According to Walpola Rahula, all the elements of the Yogacara storehouse-consciousness are already found in the Pali Canon. He writes that the three layers of the mind (citta, manas, and vijnana) as presented by Asanga are also mentioned in the Pali Canon:
Thus we can see that 'Vijnana' represents the simple reaction or response of the sense organs when they come in contact with external objects. This is the uppermost or superficial aspect or layer of the 'Vijnana-skandha'. 'Manas' represents the aspect of its mental functioning, thinking, reasoning, conceiving ideas, etc. 'Citta' which is here called 'Alayavijnana', represents the deepest, finest and subtlest aspect or layer of the Aggregate of consciousness. It contains all the traces or impressions of the past actions and all good and bad future possibilities.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby N. Needleman » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:23 pm

Ray Wise is all class. I don't think he's trying to dog on Lynch. I can't fault him for wanting a larger role for Leland and being disappointed. I would've liked a bit more of him. But I don't feel it was owed to him or Leland in Season 3, and I don't feel it's a failing of the season. I also don't think he's fallen out with Lynch anymore than Peggy or others had, TP lifers who worked on FWWM but didn't like it much. IIRC Peggy and Lynch remained close for years. Her opinion of the film (one shared by much of the TV cast at the time) is one I don't agree with, but which she and they are entitled to.
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Agent Sam Stanley
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Agent Sam Stanley » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:57 pm

Jerry Horne wrote:During the FWWM shoot she had an unheated trailer and said the whole production was cheap and had to raise Hell.


Yet they gave a trailer, even if unheated, to someone who barely had any lines in the film and probably finished her scenes in one day.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Agent Earle » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:27 pm

Hello, Agent Stanley! It's damn good to see you back :)
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Agent Sam Stanley
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Agent Sam Stanley » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:04 am

Same, Agent Earle! Good to see you all again :mrgreen:
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Jerry Horne » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:41 am

Agent Sam Stanley wrote:
Jerry Horne wrote:During the FWWM shoot she had an unheated trailer and said the whole production was cheap and had to raise Hell.


Yet they gave a trailer, even if unheated, to someone who barely had any lines in the film and probably finished her scenes in one day.


Better than giving her a blanket and a tent I suppose.
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Agent Sam Stanley
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Agent Sam Stanley » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:07 am

Jerry Horne wrote:
Agent Sam Stanley wrote:
Jerry Horne wrote:During the FWWM shoot she had an unheated trailer and said the whole production was cheap and had to raise Hell.


Yet they gave a trailer, even if unheated, to someone who barely had any lines in the film and probably finished her scenes in one day.


Better than giving her a blanket and a tent I suppose.


I'm not in the movie business, don't know how these things work, but I thought only the stars of the film got their own trailers. Seems like a luxury for a low budget film to give someone who has two lines a private trailer.

And why was she complaining about lack of heat? I thought they shot that film in the middle of summer.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:46 am

I believe FWWM shot the Washington State stuff in September-October. Also, while Lipton had what amounted to a cameo in the final film, she shot more material as seen in TMP, including a nighttime scene outdoors/in a car where it was likely pretty chilly in the northern autumn.

If you want to see a Lynch film where the actors really froze, watch the INLAND EMPIRE behind the scenes footage of Laura Dern and Lynch’s now-wife Emily Stofle shooting in the Polish winter, wearing the summer outfits from their California scenes. No one has a trailer due to the shoestring budget—just a minivan with the heat on, which they duck into between takes. Lynch is clearly very concerned with making sure Dern is as comfortable as possible given the circumstances.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Jerry Horne » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:08 am

Agent Sam Stanley wrote:
Jerry Horne wrote:
Agent Sam Stanley wrote:
Yet they gave a trailer, even if unheated, to someone who barely had any lines in the film and probably finished her scenes in one day.


Better than giving her a blanket and a tent I suppose.


I'm not in the movie business, don't know how these things work, but I thought only the stars of the film got their own trailers. Seems like a luxury for a low budget film to give someone who has two lines a private trailer.


She filmed more than two lines. Those trailers are common on location and not a luxury.

Agent Sam Stanley wrote:And why was she complaining about lack of heat? I thought they shot that film in the middle of summer.


I'm assuming she was complaining because she was genuinely cold.

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