Theories & Speculation

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N. Needleman
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby N. Needleman » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:23 pm

I always felt Judy - or time itself - ripped Laura away.

I don't think the Fireman would countenance Cooper's plan for Laura, which would seem to defy her chosen destiny in FWWM. I also don't think he would condemn her to Odessa/the Judyverse.
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krishnanspace
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby krishnanspace » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:02 pm

One thing my friend noticed in part 18 was ,since there were 2 Dianes in the Odessa reality(The original Diane and Linda I guess?) Shouldn't there be 2 Cooper's?(Original Cooper and Richard)
claaa7
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby claaa7 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:24 pm

krishnanspace wrote:One thing my friend noticed in part 18 was ,since there were 2 Dianes in the Odessa reality(The original Diane and Linda I guess?) Shouldn't there be 2 Cooper's?(Original Cooper and Richard)


Perhaps not as he already had defeated his shadow self. Maybe thats why he didnt fall for the Richard confusion.
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krishnanspace
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby krishnanspace » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:26 pm

But Richard is not his shadow self.Richard is Cooper in the new reality
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby claaa7 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:47 am

krishnanspace wrote:But Richard is not his shadow self.Richard is Cooper in the new reality


In my opinion Richard does not exist. Cooper is Cooper in the new reality. Perhaps thanks to The Firemans warning Coop didnt fall for the confusion/trick like Diane did. I think when crossing over theres a huge danger of entirely losing yourself and losing any sense of who you are. Had Coop lost that fight with himself he would have been totally trapped in this fake Richard persona and forgotten all about his mission. And perhaps the Main reason that he managed to keep his mind and mission was that he had already faced and conquered his shadow self, a big step towards enlightenment.. thats my interpretation of that part.
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krishnanspace
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby krishnanspace » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:17 am

claaa7 wrote:
krishnanspace wrote:But Richard is not his shadow self.Richard is Cooper in the new reality


In my opinion Richard does not exist. Cooper is Cooper in the new reality. Perhaps thanks to The Firemans warning Coop didnt fall for the confusion/trick like Diane did. I think when crossing over theres a huge danger of entirely losing yourself and losing any sense of who you are. Had Coop lost that fight with himself he would have been totally trapped in this fake Richard persona and forgotten all about his mission. And perhaps the Main reason that he managed to keep his mind and mission was that he had already faced and conquered his shadow self, a big step towards enlightenment.. thats my interpretation of that part.

Hmm. But I dont think this Cooper was aware of the Fireman's clues. He is very confused when he hears about Richard & Linda. When Coop meet the Fireman he says ,"I understand" meaning he knows what those Clues mean
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Rik Renault » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:25 am

krishnanspace wrote:But Richard is not his shadow self.Richard is Cooper in the new reality


That's a bold assertion when the information we have is so ambiguous, IMO.

In my reading of the final parts, Richard is a sort of amalgamation of all of the Coopers we have seen in The Return. He has the honour of Good Coop to defend the woman being hassled by the cowboy types; he has Bad Coop's cold determination; he has Dougie's meandering mannerisms. I'm pretty sure Frost said something like this in one of the forthright post-series interviews he gave, perhaps when talking about the themes of Duality in TR.

I think it's a huge credit to Kyle's performances of these characters that we can clearly pick out facets of each character in this final character.

It seemed to me like the Fireman's instructions/clues were intended to help Cooper hold onto his identity in the face of the personal distortion that apparently occurs in the process of 'crossing' ("Once we cross, it could all be different.") Diane/Linda didn't have this advantage and she clearly lost her identity and her memory of the other universe/timeline(s) ("Dear Richard, when you read this, I'll be gone. Please don't try to find me. I don't recognize you anymore. Whatever it was we had together is over.")
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krishnanspace
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby krishnanspace » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:15 am

Rik Renault wrote:
krishnanspace wrote:But Richard is not his shadow self.Richard is Cooper in the new reality


That's a bold assertion when the information we have is so ambiguous, IMO.

In my reading of the final parts, Richard is a sort of amalgamation of all of the Coopers we have seen in The Return. He has the honour of Good Coop to defend the woman being hassled by the cowboy types; he has Bad Coop's cold determination; he has Dougie's meandering mannerisms. I'm pretty sure Frost said something like this in one of the forthright post-series interviews he gave, perhaps when talking about the themes of Duality in TR.

I think it's a huge credit to Kyle's performances of these characters that we can clearly pick out facets of each character in this final character.

It seemed to me like the Fireman's instructions/clues were intended to help Cooper hold onto his identity in the face of the personal distortion that apparently occurs in the process of 'crossing' ("Once we cross, it could all be different.") Diane/Linda didn't have this advantage and she clearly lost her identity and her memory of the other universe/timeline(s) ("Dear Richard, when you read this, I'll be gone. Please don't try to find me. I don't recognize you anymore. Whatever it was we had together is over.")

What I meant was that as Mr.C is a physical/actual entity, Richard is not an actual person,its Coop(whom Linda called Richard) after he crossed 430 miles with some personality variation.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:28 am

I think we need to be more precise when talkiing about “Dougie” in this context. We have (1) Dougie-A, created by Mr. C “for a purpose”; (2) Dougie-Coop, the incarnation of “our” Dale we spend most of the season with; and (3) Dougie-B, created by Dale to go home to his family.

I assume Rik Renault is referring to number (2) above. I’m not convinced that Dougie-Coop is necessarily a separate aspect of Dale’s personality per se. In the interview with Mark that was posted this week, he referred to this characterization as Dale stripped to a nub and reentering the world as an infant, having to relearn how to become some version of himself. DKL expressed a similar sentiment in EW after the first four Parts had been released, in a rather shocking moment of transparency. I guess there’s an argument that your stripped-down “clean slate”-self is an aspect of your personality, but I’m not seeing much of DougieCoop in “Richard.”

As to the other two Dougies, I believe that when a tulpa-self is created, the original gives up some aspects of himself. Hence, the gleeful DoppelCoop we saw in Episode 29 has become the dour and joyless Mr. C, having presumably given Dougie-A his passion for sinful behavior (sex/infidelity/prostitutes, gambling, drinking, gluttony, etc.), but without the trademark Cooper cunning and ambition, which Mr. C retained.

Likewise, while I agree that “Richard” represents an integration of “our” Dale and the doppelganger, he has once again sacrificed aspects of himself to create Dougie-B for Janey-E and Sonny Jim — namely, his warmth and his joyfulness/zest for life (note how passionless he is when he sips his coffee — he’s incapable of enjoying it). In that regard, I don’t believe Part 18 Cooper is a full integration of Dale, as he is still missing something, in this case due to a conscious and selfless sacrifice.

Obviously all this is open to interpretation, but that’s the reading that to me seems most consistent with what we were given.
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mtwentz
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby mtwentz » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:02 am

I didn't notice anything of Dougie in the "Richard' version of Cooper.
"Dougie is COOPER? How the Hell is this!?"
Rik Renault
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Rik Renault » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:42 am

Mr Reindeer makes good points, and yes I did mean specifically Dougie-Coop.

mtwentz wrote:I didn't notice anything of Dougie in the "Richard' version of Cooper.

The aspects of Dougie I believe I picked up on (drawing completely from memory, as I haven't done a full rewatch for almost a year):
- Richard's movements seemed Dougie-esque to me, particularly outside the Palmer/Chalfont/Tremond house
- Richard's facial expressions and general naive optimism on Carrie's doorstep
- The way he stood in Carrie's living room, absorbing his surroundings (including the corpse) without acting upon anything

I am quite persuaded by the idea that tulpa creation involves some kind of personal sacrifice, but I also wonder if the examples outlined are just because the tulpa's creation is influenced or reflected by its creator. Maybe Dougie-A has a penchant for that sinful behaviour because his creator does; after all I think it's implied that Mr C slept with Hastings's wife and Chantal on any number of occasions (granted, it seems like Chantal seemed to be much more enamoured by the sex with Mr C than he was with her). Likewise for Dougie-B created with good intentions by 'our' Coop. I agree that the sacrificing aspects of the personality is most likely as it fits quite nicely with what we see, and proves much richer for our analysis.

What does this mean for Diane, do you think? Did Mr C sacrifice her innocence for her to create the tulpa? Is Naido-Diane the equivalent to Dougie-Coop?

I've found the Diane character to be one of the most challenging aspects of The Return, to be honest. Her narrative importance (and emotional importance to Cooper) seemed to come out of nowhere, and I maybe brought a lot of my own baggage about the character to this new season.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:44 am

I meant to add that if there is any moment I see DougieCoop come through in Part 18, it’s those final moments in the street when Dale seems to lose his bearings.

LateReg and I have discussed the possibility that Diane herself is a tulpa created by Dale many moons ago as a sort of projection/imaginary friend (which as I understand it is the generally accepted meaning of “tulpa,” rather than necessarily being a splitting-up of the self). This fits with the ambiguity of the original series, which left open the question of whether an actual “Diane” was receiving the tapes. The fragmentation of her identity, her bring rendered faceless, Cooper’s callousness in having sex with her in Part 18 (and her attempt to render Dale faceless in order to get through the experience), Mr. C seeming to enslave the tulpa into doing his will post-rape, etc. all play into the themes of agency and autonomy or lack thereof, physical and emotional abuse towards women and Dale’s own peculiar and complex relationship with the “fairer sex,” all the more disturbing if he literally dreamt her into being. Her fragmentation into (possibly countless) pieces/variations/forms may or may not have occurred because of the rape, or may have even predated it due to her odd relationship with reality — at the very least, I think the latter was a contributing factor. All of this makes perfect sense on a gut level to me but is difficult to articulate, which I imagine would greatly please DKL.
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Jasper
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Jasper » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:00 pm

I must agree with those who don't perceive Dougie-Coop in the Odessa incarnation of Cooper. I see him as a joyless Cooper who at times behaves in a very bizarre manner, especially during the apparently ritualistic sex with Diane, and in Judy's, most noticeably when he walks around the place with his gun pointing everywhere, and when he puts the other guns into the deep fryer. This is when he displays the qualities most similar to those of Mr. C. Furthermore, Kyle has described the direction that he was given by Lynch, who apparently instructed Kyle to portray Cooper, but with a bit of a harder character. This bolsters the idea that Dougie-Coop isn't really present (at least in any non-integrated manner). At the same time, I agree with others that it's possible that a part of the self must be given to create a tulpa, which could explain the absence of joy and enthusiasm in Cooper, whilst the glimpse we get of the second Dougie tulpa reveals an individual characterized by those very qualities.
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kitty666cats
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby kitty666cats » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:15 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:As to the other two Dougies, I believe that when a tulpa-self is created, the original gives up some aspects of himself. Hence, the gleeful DoppelCoop we saw in Episode 29 has become the dour and joyless Mr. C, having presumably given Dougie-A his passion for sinful behavior (sex/infidelity/prostitutes, gambling, drinking, gluttony, etc.), but without the trademark Cooper cunning and ambition, which Mr. C retained.



Ooh, I like this interpretation. Makes a lot of sense to me!
Terence
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Terence » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:14 am

Im sure loving the theories & speculations going on here.
A great thread this is.

What i have being meaning to ask since the finale happened.

What is theory on what happened just after Carrie Paige let out that great scream after her memorys of her life of Laura come back & she hears her mother calling to her?

Of course we know the whole theme of electricity throughout the season which can not be ignored.
The house blowing out the lights isn't just for dramatic effect something major has happened the whole lodge spirits function through electricity which we've seen since FWWM film with the electric pole with number 6 on it. That appears also on the new season, Cooper comes out from the Lodge from a electric socket.
The huming of electric thats around whenever the Woodsmen are about & so on & on..

So of course the theory is as im sure we have all heard or think Judy through Sarah when calling out to Laura has being defeated or stopped when Laura lets out that epic scream & the whole houses electricity goes out.

The screen goes to black we see Dale & Laura in the Black Lodge again.

Getting to my real whole question of what i really want to hear from everyone here is.
What do you think has actually happened next after the houses lights go out?

Im thinking has this reality Dale Cooper entered is it now gone seeing as he went to it to get Laura cause she was sent to a fake reality different dimension after she disappeared from hes grasp in 1989.

Just after that scream & lights out did this pocket reality as some like to call it fold in on it self?

This thought im always thinking did Cooper just after the lights go out & the same way at the start of part 18 when Cooper sees Laura disappears from behind him then all of a sudden Dale turns hes head & i think sees a flash & whoosh hes back in the Black Lodge sitting in the same chair with the Phillip Geard talking to him.

So at the end credits could it be possible that Dale Cooper has been teleported back to the Lodge just like he had been at start of part 18 & now Laura is talking to him again into hes ear because the reality he was just in is gone when lights in the house went out.

Maybe Dale Cooper is now a magician that longs to see.
After Judy has been banished with that fake reality gone he returns to the Lodges & after been in that place for 25 years a quarter of a century after all he might never really be able to go from that place just like Phillip Geard has become one with the Mike spirit & Phillip Jeffries exists as a different being now.

Maybe Cooper is part of the Lodges now but can go & come from the place also as he pleases.

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