Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[Snailhead]

Regarding the special effects - yeah a lot of them aren't great. I don't know I feel about them. But, again, there is a precedent.

Well come on, that's hardly an apt comparison.

Why not? Every time I watch that scene it stands out as clunky to me and nearly takes me out of the moment. But I still love that scene.

[RedRum]

I am an original fan. I was 24 when the show first aired, and I worked at a coffee shop in San Francisco, where we were all Twin Peaks fans and discussed the show every day while making lattes and cappuccinos. I was also one of those strange birds who liked FWWM on the first viewing (though I did miss the sense of quirky humor that was largely missing in the second half of the film).

I doubt there is any grand correlation on any one variable (original viewer, new viewer) that one could use to figure out who likes the show vs. who doesn't. I do wonder, though, if fans who decided to have a Twin Peaks party and invite all their friends may have had a more difficult time in watching the show. Since it is a very specialized show to a specialized audience (fans of the original and the movie) watching with someone not really prepared for what they were about to see could have negative consequences. We are all susceptible to the influence of others, and having a friend say over and over, 'This sucks, I don't understand anything that's going on' could put one in a negative mindset.

(I actually had this happen to me once. A movie which was actually a pretty good film for its genre was ruined for me by a friend who kept repeating, 'this sucks, this is awful').

I think its rather more like for a new audience of David Lynch Fans that are pretentious enough to like it because its Lynchian.

Season three corrupts the original material, so therefore I think for you to like 'The Return', you must then not care about the original material... this is where the paradox is...

How can you be a fan of the original yet not mind that it gets corrupted for a return?

[IcedOver]

Why not? Every time I watch that scene it stands out as clunky to me and nearly takes me out of the moment. But I still love that scene.

You're talking about a completely different era of special effects. The digital effects possible today, just in the last few years, are unbelievable. Yet this show is employing special effects that would have been poor in the late '90s. Of course you can't expect the best when this show obviously had pretty big budget restrictions, but they're pretty awful. It doesn't help that they're filmed with the flat digital cinematography.

[Novalis]

Do you imagine it feels a little preachy sometimes? .

the ''Lynch as guru/guide'' aspect is part of my irritation ( rather than disappointment) with TP TR ( i can't see it as series 3) but my answer to your question in short, hearing aid turned down, is:

YES

[ note : series not over yet, opinions subject to revision ]

ps , maybe the problem is that Lynch has fallen into that old trap that happens to people when they get old, they can't just tell stories, they always have to put themselves in the story. But then you know teenagers are like that. And ancient legends. So maybe it is our problem as a modern viewer we have lost the connection between the story-teller and the story. and prefer artifice to reality - if we are liberal voters [ thanks redrum]. Republicans would prefer Eastenders, obviously. Surprised it's not syndicated.

We're all getting older. As I get older, I find myself having a far more equalitarian outlook. But I've been 'middle-aged' for a while now, and well 'over myself' enough to enjoy the existence of others with varied views. If we disagree, well, that is part of life's rich pageant: nature disagrees with itself; existence as such is hardly a 'harmonious' fact.

If you want to say Lynch is falling to pieces then be my guest. I'm not of that opinion myself, though. I don't see much change in him at all to be honest -- indeed that for me is almost problematic in itself.

As I said I've never been sure whether my irritation with Lynch is with the Gee-Whizz-Guru that he plays and is presented as, or with my inability to take him at face value. Maybe it's both. I mean, I don't really believe in Gurus as such, but I do believe a person can be inspired from time to time. I can certainly see the value in a commitment to a 'spiritual life' or an 'art life', or indeed to any kind of personal self-discipline but I don't feel that this guarantees insight or good art. I think Lynch got lucky a few times, maybe had a few good ideas. However, I'd be interested to know if and how some of these ideas are more the result of collaborative effort, conversations, socialisation, artistic influence, etc. than the fruits of solitary meditation.

I'm in my forties. I saw the original series when it aired in the UK -- I remember that as being 1991 for some reason (maybe it was earlier, my mind is going grey after all). I love season 3. Someone with a powerful voice said 'no politics' so I'll respect that, but if you're smart you'll likely already know my colours from reading between the lines in my posts and seeing where my concerns lie. I guess I'm another stray data-point that doesn't conform to the proposed model. How rude!

[Snailhead]

Why not? Every time I watch that scene it stands out as clunky to me and nearly takes me out of the moment. But I still love that scene.

You're talking about a completely different era of special effects. The digital effects possible today, just in the last few years, are unbelievable. Yet this show is employing special effects that would have been poor in the late '90s. Of course you can't expect the best when this show obviously had pretty big budget restrictions, but they're pretty awful. It doesn't help that they're filmed with the flat digital cinematography.

I mostly agree. But there are times in The Return when I find their awfulness to have a certain charm.

[LateReg]

Why not? Every time I watch that scene it stands out as clunky to me and nearly takes me out of the moment. But I still love that scene.

You're talking about a completely different era of special effects. The digital effects possible today, just in the last few years, are unbelievable. Yet this show is employing special effects that would have been poor in the late '90s. Of course you can't expect the best when this show obviously had pretty big budget restrictions, but they're pretty awful. It doesn't help that they're filmed with the flat digital cinematography.

I think whatever you want to say about the special effects in The Return, that you have to look at Part 8, in which, in my opinion, the effects are as flawless as anything out there. This means that Lynch could have used that level of effects for everything else in the show, but chose not to. That's the key to me. Why did he choose not to? That's the basic question we have to ask, I think, before proceeding to say they either work or flat out suck. I think they work, and almost always have, as part of the very personal "art" of the thing. They're unreal and that lends to the surreality of everything. But at first I admit I was taken aback.

[douglasb]

There's a lot of conflict going on - I scratch my head at Green Glove Guy and yet in the very same scene James Marshall is knocking it out the park. It's odd, I like much of the old school TP stuff in S3, and I like most of the new characters but there's something stopping me from properly enjoying the two together. As someone noted above - I'm not sure it's compelling enough. Perhaps it's a lack of urgency, tension or real drama?

[Bookworm]

It's too late to stop watching but at this point I sincerely wish I had not watched a single episode of The Return. TP meant a lot to me and it's going to mean less after this. I have no doubt that people will use that to say I never really loved the original but trust me, it's not that simple. I hope I, and others who feel the same, can partition our minds to just basically eradicate this altogether but that's almost impossible. I absolutely adored Before Sunrise but it's really hard to watch that movie now, knowing how things turn out.

I feel you. Like you I'm going to watch trough until the end but just because I want to see the conclusion of all this. And yes at this point quitting would make no sense, there is only fourth episode left. So I'm just watching for scientific curiosity you may say: without passion nor expectations. Just by curiosity. And it's a far cry from how I watched the original run. Now I may not going as far as to say that the Return ruined the original run for me, firstly because I'm just going to eradicate it altogether. Or more accurately, I'll be pretending it's an isolated work without any link to the first two seasons. And secondly because for me the Original Run can very well stand on its own, despite the New Season That Never Was Yet Exist. What I mean is that if I ever watch the OR again I'll watch without the new season in mind, if that make sens.

Now like I said, I have now expectations but frankly if that British guy end up being the one defeating Mr.C with his super hero hand (I've seen many people believing this is what would happen) I'm going to die by cause of suffocating laughter. And I don't say that in a positive manner.

But you know, deep down I think it's not so much the show being bad but about me having changed. I was 15 years old when I watched Twin Peaks. Since then so much time went by. I'm obviously not the same person I was back then. What worked for me then clearly don't work now. Granted the Return is a very different thing than what it was then, but still.

So here my own feeling. I don't complain anymore, I'm over that at this point. I just wait and see. And then eradicate.

[Aqwell]

I highly recommend The Killing - The American Remake.... its mood and character flaws are nigh on perfect...

I've seen the 4 seasons, very good crime/drama. I liked Mireille Enos and Joel Kinnaman, good alchemy.

Now like I said, I have now expectations but frankly if that British guy end up being the one defeating Mr.C with his super hero hand (I've seen many people believing this is what would happen) I'm going to die by cause of suffocating laughter. And I don't say that in a positive manner.

I'm beyond disappointment now, and not against ending the damn thing with a good laugh, so go GloveMan!

[Framed_Angel]

... I appreciate that Lynch is keeping his audience off balance, but every good element and moment feels like it's balanced out with something that's clunky. I can't help but think that while this show is unique, that even in its uniqueness, it could have been better. It could have had all its current elements and been better photographed, had better special effects, more care taken with some scenes during filming and editing, better acting at times, etc. People have made excuses the whole run for some of these elements, but why is it so hard to believe/admit that some things weren't intentional and could have been the product of a rushed production and editing process? ... Lynch is tearing down the old comfort structures we're used to not just from "TP", but from conventional storytelling. We want to know what happened between Ed and Norma, but we don't get that. We don't have characters talking about themselves, their dreams, their internal lives, like in the original. Instead, people are behaving in a more "realistic" (Lynch-level realism) way. I get all that, but as I said, if all this were done in a more . . . compelling way, I think the show would be immeasurably better. It's hard to explain.

I felt that you explained it just fine, and your POV resonates with me, for one. I am back and forth reacting almost continually. You've articulated pretty much how the Return has struck me, thus far.
Reposting the link to your post in case it gets obscured, which it will anyway but thanks for putting your thoughts in perspective: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3544&start=2430#p101916

[IcedOver]

I think whatever you want to say about the special effects in The Return, that you have to look at Part 8, in which, in my opinion, the effects are as flawless as anything out there. This means that Lynch could have used that level of effects for everything else in the show, but chose not to. That's the key to me. Why did he choose not to? That's the basic question we have to ask, I think, before proceeding to say they either work or flat out suck. I think they work, and almost always have, as part of the very personal "art" of the thing. They're unreal and that lends to the surreality of everything. But at first I admit I was taken aback.

Well, the roach/frog wasn't that great, but most of the effects in that part were better than other episodes. The light show in the bomb blast was all effects, though, not integrated into real photography, which appears to have been the problem with this show.

[boske]

(Right now, I'll leave the Sarah Palmer situation aside until we know more).

This is the deal-breaker. It is hard to reconcile the frog-bug and first two seasons, honestly.

So if you look at it in perspective, it was utterly predictable that the mythology and the rules would change, because Lynch did just that with FWWM. That does not mean anyone has to like these changes, I am just surprised that anyone is surprised by it.

The point is that these rules would be expanded, evolved, but not that they would contradict or trash the first two seasons. That's the problem.

Ok, I have to admit to being a little confused. Do we know anything about the Frog Moth other than what we saw on the screen on that particular episode? As far as I know, that scene could be completely metaphorical and as far as I know, we have not established the identity of the girl.

Some posters have stated they think she is Sarah Palmer, and that's probably a good guess, but it could also end up that that scene is never explained and could be left up to interpretation.

You are right, they have not yet been connected. And dealing with how expectations have been set and broken, it is not guaranteed that Sarah is the girl from episode 8, although quite a few things point to it (for me it is mainly musical cues and the Sarah/Hawk scene at her front door). At the time (episode 8 ), I thought that the frog-bug scene was symbolic (just the interaction, not the girl), and still do, but the whole face mask thing has me bewildered and disappointed. So instead of the frog-bug I should have probably said "face mask".

I find the the concept of the grinning dark face very, very intriguing, and have seen it before (not in the Cheshire cat), so I am not quite sure of its exact origin. But why implicate Sarah there in such a manner? It is such a deal-breaker for me, the complete Leland-Laura-Sarah triangle is tossed into the garbage bin. For now at least.

[LateReg]

I think whatever you want to say about the special effects in The Return, that you have to look at Part 8, in which, in my opinion, the effects are as flawless as anything out there. This means that Lynch could have used that level of effects for everything else in the show, but chose not to. That's the key to me. Why did he choose not to? That's the basic question we have to ask, I think, before proceeding to say they either work or flat out suck. I think they work, and almost always have, as part of the very personal "art" of the thing. They're unreal and that lends to the surreality of everything. But at first I admit I was taken aback.

Well, the roach/frog wasn't that great, but most of the effects in that part were better than other episodes. The light show in the bomb blast was all effects, though, not integrated into real photography, which appears to have been the problem with this show.

Hmmm. The roach/frog looked as good as anything I've ever seen. Jurassic Park, whatever. IMO.

[IcedOver]

Hmmm. The roach/frog looked as good as anything I've ever seen. Jurassic Park, whatever. IMO.

Well, the original Jurassic Park effects are very dated today. They've been surpassed by many miles.

[RedRum]

This is the deal-breaker. It is hard to reconcile the frog-bug and first two seasons, honestly.


The point is that these rules would be expanded, evolved, but not that they would contradict or trash the first two seasons. That's the problem.

Ok, I have to admit to being a little confused. Do we know anything about the Frog Moth other than what we saw on the screen on that particular episode? As far as I know, that scene could be completely metaphorical and as far as I know, we have not established the identity of the girl.

I think the fact that everyone is having a hard time to even describe what Season three is, is enough cause to say what it isn't...

One can't just write down a bunch of ideas and throw them out unconnected and hope people can follow or even devine any meaning.

I have a theory for this or a theory for that.... That would be fine if there was a main string to follow... but there just isn't. Like an abstract puzzle where there is no guide as to what is the correct solution.