Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[boske]

Folks, please don't leave the thread. Let us be civil and leave politics to PMSNBCABCNNBC.

[Mallard]

We can't help liking the show any more than you can help hating it.

But how can you like it when it literally corrupts the original material so completely?

Do you like the season as a stand alone?

Or do you like the fact it changes the meaning of the original so completely.?

Does that then mean you didn't really like the original?

Do you see why those of us that hate what season three cannot see eye to eye with those that love season three?

I like this season, and I like the original. When I watch either, my reaction is enjoyment, not disappointment (except part 12 - I hated 12). I don't owe anyone a justification. We just see things differently in terms of the Return's quality and impact on the original.

[boske]

To some (myself included), the fact that Sarah Palmer is a throat-slashing monster, removing her face as if a mask, is a big problem that mutilates the previous series as we have known it for 25+ years. The some it is not, as simple as that.

Now to people who like this season, does this Sarah Palmer transformation bother you and affect the viewing of the original in any way? If not, do you at least acknowledge that we have a legitimate issue with it?

[referendum]

Since this thread is going in this direction, I am going to try and articulate why I started reading and posting in this forum. This has no bearing on whether it is ' right ' or ' wrong' to like or dislike it.
I had got to about episode 6, with no re-watches ( will save that for when the thing is over ) when i noticed an odd thing happening. The series had bled over into my daily life. Bits of it started appearing in my dreams, and i would make random connections or associations about stuff that had happened a month beforehand with stuff that happened yesterday, both inside and outside the series. The margins between the series and my actual working life ( i edit sound and video) started to become blurred. I am not the only one to have experienced this series as a ' real world phenomena' as well as a TV series. A friend of mine was working on a movie that re-purposed the moonlight sonata, and hey presto in ep 12, what she ' dreamt' was there on TV. There is something very mysterious and rare, I think, about films that are able to connect with people in this immediate and ' in-the-now' way. TP 1 and 2 did for alot of people, hence this forum. Hate it or love it, or in between, and despite it's flaws, TP TR still has this ability to ( occasionally) bypass rational response and, as per the old heineken advert ' refresh parts of the body that other [series] can't reach'.

[mtwentz]

We can't help liking the show any more than you can help hating it.

But how can you like it when it literally corrupts the original material so completely?

Do you like the season as a stand alone?

Or do you like the fact it changes the meaning of the original so completely.?

Does that then mean you didn't really like the original?

Do you see why those of us that hate what season three cannot see eye to eye with those that love season three?

We could start a separate thread on this, but I think the more radical changes flow from FWWM. FWWM changed the mythology more than The Return, IMHO.

1. Blue Rose/Jeffries- Directly contradicts the original series, in which the only reason to investigate the Laura Palmer case was because Ronette crossed state lines.

2. Garmonbozia/Creamed Corn- Completely upended the motivations of Mike/The One Armed Man

3. Electricity- What happened to the owls?

4. Woodsmen/Jumping Man/Convenience Store- Never mentioned in the original, introduced in FWWM.

5. Laura as a spiritual figure- This is somewhat alluded to in the series but further cemented with Laura's decision to take the ring and her visions of angels in the end.

6. Cooper being trapped in the Lodge, as opposed to merely possessed.


The three major updates in The Return are:

1. A nuclear explosion perhaps opening the doors to the Lodge

2. The ability of spirits (Woodsmen, Mother) to do more than just inhabit other beings, but to directly kill humans.

3. The ability of the Lodge to manufacture decoys.
(Right now, I'll leave the Sarah Palmer situation aside until we know more).

So if you look at it in perspective, it was utterly predictable that the mythology and the rules would change, because Lynch did just that with FWWM. That does not mean anyone has to like these changes, I am just surprised that anyone is surprised by it.

[Mallard]

Yeah this is the thing though, I'm sort of saying it's been mostly nice up until now but disappointment it turning into something worse, so all I ask is that you understand that is probably going to come through more and more. Some people who shall not be named get quite offended when we start criticising Lynch or the adulation for The Return but I don't see why we can't do that in this thread. You have to understand that for many of The Return is abysmal. Not just that it doesn't live up to the Original but it's taking away something precious. I know you said in an earlier post that you didn't really understand how something you love can be tainted by what comes later (sorry if I'm mis-paraphrasing you) but believe me it can and it is.

It's too late to stop watching but at this point I sincerely wish I had not watched a single episode of The Return. TP meant a lot to me and it's going to mean less after this. I have no doubt that people will use that to say I never really loved the original but trust me, it's not that simple. I hope I, and others who feel the same, can partition our minds to just basically eradicate this altogether but that's almost impossible. I absolutely adored Before Sunrise but it's really hard to watch that movie now, knowing how things turn out.

I'll take this as a cue to quit lurking in here.

Just remember, most of us don't take any pleasure in the fact that you didn't like this show, and honestly feel bad that it's starting to ruin the whole series for you. As a courtesy to the "non-disappointed" who posted here in good faith, try not to take out your frustration on us. We can't help liking the show any more than you can help hating it.

Don't, I've really enjoyed your posts. That wasn't meant to be a 'Get out of this thread!' more like don't get too offended. I don't know. I started the thread but it's not my thread anymore than yours. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, just that really in a thread with this title, venting (rather than debate) should be expected.

Thanks, mlsstwrt. Hope things turn around for you over the next couple of episodes, but I imagine the die's pretty much cast for you at this point.

PS - I don't like Green Glove anymore than you do. Unless it's supposed to be some kind of commentary on the glut of superhero shows/films being released now, I can't fathom why they thought it was a good character concept for the show. Granted, I also disliked super-strength Nadine, so take it for what it's worth.

[Jerry Horne]

A reminder that discussing politics on this forum is not allowed.

Thank you.

[Novalis]

To some (myself included), the fact that Sarah Palmer is a throat-slashing monster, removing her face as if a mask, is a big problem that mutilates the previous series as we have known it for 25+ years. The some it is not, as simple as that.

Now to people who like this season, does this Sarah Palmer transformation bother you and affect the viewing of the original in any way? If not, do you at least acknowledge that we have a legitimate issue with it?

I like season 3 and this Sarah scene bothers me somewhat. I'm prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt for the moment though. What we've seen doesn't necessarily entail a retcon of her role in the original series; the indwelling chin-vampire may be a recent development.

Why do you need us to acknowledge or legitimate your having issues with the scene? Are you not already expressing that feeling openly in a much-read thread? I wonder how I would convince you that your expressions are being acknowledged more than this. Do we need to have some kind of formal ceremony?

I really don't know what I'm doing here. Help me out someone.

[dronerstone]

I am profoundly disappointed, not about the series, but about this board's front page CHAT being removed w/o notice, probably due to certain spoilers.

[referendum]

We could start a separate thread on this, but I think the more radical changes flow from FWWM. FWWM changed the mythology more than The Return, IMHO.

1. Blue Rose/Jeffries- Directly contradicts the original series, in which the only reason to investigate the Laura Palmer case was because Ronette crossed state lines.

2. Garmonbozia/Creamed Corn- Completely upended the motivations of Mike/The One Armed Man

3. Electricity- What happened to the owls?

4. Woodsmen/Jumping Man/Convenience Store- Never mentioned in the original, introduced in FWWM.

5. Laura as a spiritual figure- This is somewhat alluded to in the series but further cemented with Laura's decision to take the ring and her visions of angels in the end.

6. Cooper being trapped in the Lodge, as opposed to merely possessed.


The three major updates in The Return are:

1. A nuclear explosion perhaps opening the doors to the Lodge

2. The ability of spirits (Woodsmen, Mother) to do more than just inhabit other beings, but to directly kill humans.

3. The ability of the Lodge to manufacture decoys.
(Right now, I'll leave the Sarah Palmer situation aside until we know more).

So if you look at it in perspective, it was utterly predictable that the mythology and the rules would change, because Lynch did just that with FWWM. That does not mean anyone has to like these changes, I am just surprised that anyone is surprised by it.

hey nice post. I would like to add one other thing as a major update for The Return. The nature of representation. The first two series was a convincing world in and of itself. Things like Catherine Martell woman re-appearing as mr nakamura ( sp?) were obvious ' fourth wall' breaks - bob jumping at the camera in an empty room, etc were used in a light handed kind of way, even if they were crap. But this series is MUCH more explicit about that, the Monica Belucci sequence being as far as you can go in that direction, '' who is the dreamer'' - and then Lynch looks over his shoulder to HIS OWN GALLERY SHOW !! This series CONSTANTLY spells out the artifice, mockney cockney boy and michael cera being obvious examples. And all the references to other Lynch works, made and unmade, and his central role as an actor and plot mover. We are 14 hours in, making for HIM to make the connections, and hearing about Tulpas !! The violence and the language are used as blunt instruments and the optimism has been thrown in a ditch.

That is new, the artifice ( and the attitude towards the material) being made so explicit ( even on the nuts 'n' bolts level of camera work and sfx and soundtrack, which has been very gymnastic in terms of drawing attention to itself in this series) 'our' world leaving foot-tracks in 'their' world and vice-versa, margins blurring, worlds within worlds within worlds. Everything is very handmade and deliberately carries the traces of it's own making. It is very self-aware. You are constantly reminded that what you are looking at is a representation, a waking dream, a series of side-shows where the main event is the series itself, a thing made by the author who is one of the central characters.

I can see why that kind of thing pisses people off.

[Saturn's child]

To some (myself included), the fact that Sarah Palmer is a throat-slashing monster, removing her face as if a mask, is a big problem that mutilates the previous series as we have known it for 25+ years. The some it is not, as simple as that.

Now to people who like this season, does this Sarah Palmer transformation bother you and affect the viewing of the original in any way? If not, do you at least acknowledge that we have a legitimate issue with it?

I don't normally post in this thread (I like to leave the profoundly disappointed thread to the profoundly disappointed; what occurs within is imo justifiable & entirely up to you!), but thought I'd chime in.

I've always loved Sarah Palmer as a character, in both the original series & FWWM. Her role in the Return has changed, but I see no reason (as of yet) for it to colour my experience of her in the original run. As it stands, whatever is up with her in the Return, it may be a recent (post 1991) thing, brought on / invited in by the understandable darkness she's endured in the wake of her daughter's & husband's deaths. If not, & this is a retcon where she's always been possessed by some malevolent force, I think I'll still be able to see the 'original' Sarah whenever I watch the series. This may be because of the way I take things in, I don't need it all to be continuous, make sense/canon, I just like to roll with things if they spark my interest (which the Return has).

In saying that, I absolutely acknowledge that you have a legitimate issue with it; I think these are all legitimate issues if you're feeling them. Which is part of the reason I wanted to leave this thread for those who are disappointed to vent how they see fit (which is still how I think it should run).

For what it's worth, I'm a long-time fan of the original series & the world it created, & have re-watched it many, many times. It has such a unique place in my heart that I think -- no matter how these last parts turn out -- I'll always be able to go back to the 1990(ish) Peaks & find a place to emotionally dive into. The Return is an entirely new beast, that much is clear. Luckily it's hit the right buttons for me, but I can also see how the overt 'we are not continuing the vibe/character of the original series' stance is upsetting to some/many who are such big fans of the original run. I don't expect y'all to come around, but it's honestly a little heartbreaking to see that several posters I've seen around since pre-Return days (I'm a long-time lurker) are so upset over this... If I try to put myself in your shoes, to have such a beautiful world despoiled, it's a sad thing indeed, & I'm sorry it's blighted what for you was such a beautiful place.

Anyway, don't know if I'll post again, but count me as someone who is very happy to have a place for people to vent, be bitter, negative, whatever feelings you have coming up. Everyone's reaction is equally valid. Carry on!

[boske]

To some (myself included), the fact that Sarah Palmer is a throat-slashing monster, removing her face as if a mask, is a big problem that mutilates the previous series as we have known it for 25+ years. The some it is not, as simple as that.

Now to people who like this season, does this Sarah Palmer transformation bother you and affect the viewing of the original in any way? If not, do you at least acknowledge that we have a legitimate issue with it?

I like season 3 and this Sarah scene bothers me somewhat. I'm prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt for the moment though. What we've seen doesn't necessarily entail a retcon of her role in the original series; the indwelling chin-vampire may be a recent development.

Why do you need us to acknowledge or legitimate your having issues with the scene? Are you not already expressing that feeling openly in a much-read thread? I wonder how I would convince you that your expressions are being acknowledged more than this. Do we need to have some kind of formal ceremony?

I really don't know what I'm doing here. Help me out someone.

Well, for one example, we have people that parachute into this thread and tell us to "suck it up" because we have issues with it. There?

[boske]

Double post, sorry.

[yaxomoxay]

We can't help liking the show any more than you can help hating it.

But how can you like it when it literally corrupts the original material so completely?

Do you like the season as a stand alone?

Or do you like the fact it changes the meaning of the original so completely.?

Does that then mean you didn't really like the original?

Do you see why those of us that hate what season three cannot see eye to eye with those that love season three?

I like this season, and I like the original. When I watch either, my reaction is enjoyment, not disappointment (except part 12 - I hated 12). I don't owe anyone a justification. We just see things differently in terms of the Return's quality and impact on the original.

Quick answer about Sarah: no.
For the time being, it doesn't really bother me. I guess that is mainly because we don't know enough about it yet. If my guess is correct (her soul was eaten by pain and suffering), then I will be very pleased. If there is something stupid, I will call it stupid. If it's something ok, I will call it ok.
However, a question. Isn't TP different?
Let me explain. I think we both agree that a nostalgia fest would've been bad. How could Lynch do something Twin Peaks-ian without touching what was in the past? Let me give you an example. Season 2, Episode 14. Brand new (great) episode. Leland faces the mirror, and we see our good 'ol buddy Bob. That does completely change the narrative of Season 1. There is no way that re-watching the sobbing Leland you won't think about that.
There is no way that looking at Laura's body you won't think about what happened to her because of her daddy (or even more after watching FWWM). Another example, Cooper explaining that he had an affair with his colleague's wife. That makes him a bit of a jackass. It changes his character, it changes how he interacts with Audrey. The "meaning of the original" is always going to be modified by each and every successive episode. Look at Josie. The tame Asian of the first episodes ends up being quite an individual (and then a knob!) that played characters. The only way that Lynch/Frost could've kept the originals intact was by doing nothing. A single episode, or a movie, was going to change everything. A single extra shot from the Lodge was going to change everything. Just look at FWWM. It changes the game completely. No one can watch FWWM and say that it doesn't change the meaning of the originals.. And guess what, even the deleted Missing Pieces change a good portion of the structure!
Why? My guess is that TP is an abnormal product that transcends time. That is, it is structured in a way in which actions tend to have repercussions both ways in the timeline of events. Major Briggs is an example. When he shows the COOPER/COOPER/COOPER message, he changes the meaning of Cooper's presence in Twin Peaks. And it also changes Cooper's future.
I honestly can't think of a single series that even gets close to this. Maybe Lost, but that series used a clunky mechanism of flashbacks, flashforwards, and flashsideways.
My 2c


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[yaxomoxay]

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