Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Agent Earle
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:42 pm

Venus wrote:
I've read in numerous places that he felt really really burnt by being forced to reveal the killer, the shows time being moved all about the scheduling (one way to lose many viewers) and that the show got axed. He/it was not treated well. He'd had it with doing tv. Which is why he insisted on complete creative control this time, enough to walk out on the project until he got exactly what he wanted. He wasn't going to ever put himself in that situation again as it had been too awful a situation the first time round - he'd not forgotten. Nothing to do with series 2 sucking, just the awful way that he and the show was treated by ABC.


I knew all that, Venus. Which is why Lynch's recent confessions about the quality of Season 2 completely floored me - here I was all these years under the impression Lynch was the one believing in his show when all others have given up and was fighting till the last second to get it renewed so he could do more magic, only for him saying now that the show became a piece of s... in Season 2 (basically degrading himself to the level of the masses who turned its back on it when the mystery of Laura's killer was revealed), which means he's retrospectively agreeing it was for the best that the show got put down in '91 (who knows, maybe he even suggested as much to the suits then). I truly feel like we've been suckers for loving something and living with it for 25+ years when its very creator thought/thinks it was crap (well, 2/3 of it, anyway).
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mtsi
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtsi » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:43 pm

If anything, this episode requires us to look at this after it's complete...the entirety of the project is the only way it can be properly judged. It's too complex to be seen as episodic television.

Personally, I loved Part 8. I laughed the entire time. Took me back to college and Eraserhead, late at night in 1984. Just made me happy....almost giddy.

So, YMMV. But I hope you can relax and let it finish its point. It certainly hasn't.

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Agent Earle
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Re: RE: Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:47 pm

Dalai Cooper wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:
Dalai Cooper wrote:
This is cool fanfic but you should be able to say what you dislike about this season without making shit up about what happened during the shoot and the mental states of Lynch & Frost


There's a difference between "making shit up" and speculating. People have been doing the latter all over the place on Dugpa (and elsewhere).



Actually saying mark frost wasn't present for filming and lynch pulled out halfway through production is making shit up. The fanfic about the creators' states of mind (see also recent posts about Lynch's bitterness at abc) might be comforting in the face of something you dislike being critically well-received but are kind of the last refuge of the scoundrel and don't exactly beg to be taken seriously.


Well, that's us, "continuity nazis" and "scoundrel" for ya! Cheers to you too! :)

Btw, there's nothing fanfic re Lynch's bitterness at ABC - it's been a well-reported and a well-known fact for decades now. Just because Lynch now says Season 2 was crap doesn't grant him the power to change factual history, no matter how fans of Season 3 gush over it.
Dalai Cooper
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Dalai Cooper » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:55 pm

I meant "Lynch's continuing bitterness at abc as a primary motivator for any part of s3", something there is no evidence for (textual or otherwise); I trusted you to complete the thought, sorry. I dont think lynch is trying to change factual history, unlike the poster making things up about frost not being on set and lynch leaving halfway through production.
Agent Earle
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:09 pm

Dalai Cooper wrote:I meant "Lynch's continuing bitterness at abc as a primary motivator for any part of s3", something there is no evidence for (textual or otherwise); I trusted you to complete the thought, sorry. I dont think lynch is trying to change factual history, unlike the poster making things up about frost not being on set and lynch leaving halfway through production.


Maybe the poster who made that post jumped to conclusion re Frost's presence on the set as there really weren't that many photos of him there (I remember 1, maybe 2) and everyone has been silent as a tomb re Frost's role in the actual shoot - hence, his speculation seems more than valid to me. He maybe just phrased it the wrong way, like it's an established fact.
As for the part re Lynch leaving halfway through production, well, it is possible to make a mistake, you know (even though you don't make them apparently); Lynch did quit the negotiations about the production and much was made of the fact - the poster saying so could simply mixed the time it happened with some other time (the process of bringing this to the screen wasn't exactly swift, and not everyone holds every little phase and detail in his head).

So, not everything that doesn't suit your fancy needs to be an ill-tempered attempt to trash your beloved Season 3.
oldforce
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby oldforce » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:16 pm

counterpaul wrote:
oldforce wrote:In another thread it might be appropriate for me to address the idea of character in TP and The Return and how I actually feel very much like this new show is very invested in character, just not telling us in the same way most shows do.


I would love to read your thoughts on this. I completely agree that TPTR is profoundly character driven (yes, even--maybe especially--Part 8 ). Basically since FWWM, Lynch has been developing an inside-out method of character-driven storytelling and I find it absolutely thrilling. I think that in many ways The Return is even more character driven than the original series.

I continue to find this thread engaging despite the fact that I'm loving The Return because I fundamentally agree with a lot of people here that fantasy world-building mumbo jumbo is boring and I have no interest in trying to shoehorn Lynch's imagery into a consistent "mythology." I guess where I differ from a lot of people in this thread is that I think Lynch finds that stuff equally boring and it's simply not what he's doing in The Return at all--just like it wasn't what he was doing in Episode 2 or Episode 8 or Episode 29 or FWWM.

Twin Peaks is still 100% a story about human beings. What we're seeing is surrealism, not fantasy or symbolism meant to be decoded and reduced. The imagery is driven by emotion and is mean to be felt. What I felt in Part 8 was total chaos and destruction being met with a response of deep love and compassion and hope. This follows what is happening with Coop at this point in the narrative very naturally to me.


yeah this is great, and I will likely do an extensive monog on these issues.
Dalai Cooper
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Dalai Cooper » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:21 pm

Agent Earle wrote:
Dalai Cooper wrote:I meant "Lynch's continuing bitterness at abc as a primary motivator for any part of s3", something there is no evidence for (textual or otherwise); I trusted you to complete the thought, sorry. I dont think lynch is trying to change factual history, unlike the poster making things up about frost not being on set and lynch leaving halfway through production.


Maybe the poster who made that post jumped to conclusion re Frost's presence on the set as there really weren't that many photos of him there (I remember 1, maybe 2) and everyone has been silent as a tomb re Frost's role in the actual shoot - hence, his speculation seems more than valid to me. He maybe just phrased it the wrong way, like it's an established fact.
As for the part re Lynch leaving halfway through production, well, it is possible to make a mistake, you know (even though you don't make them apparently); Lynch did quit the negotiations about the production and much was made of the fact - the poster saying so could simply mixed the time it happened with some other time (the process of bringing this to the screen wasn't exactly swift, and not everyone holds every little phase and detail in his head).

So, not everything that doesn't suit your fancy needs to be an ill-tempered attempt to trash your beloved Season 3.


I'm happy to go along with a generous reading of these two untrue statements, my point was only that if the untrue statements - deliberate or honest mistakes - are being used in support of otherwise baseless speculation on the psychological motivations behind what is evidently an untroubled and successful collaboration, it's like... just say you don't like it? No need for the alt-facts.
Dalai Cooper
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Dalai Cooper » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:24 pm

I'd add, to be more positive, that most of the people in this thread are doing a great job of doing so!
Agent Earle
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:25 pm

Fair enough, let's move on.
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Venus
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:29 pm

Agent Earle wrote:
Venus wrote:
I've read in numerous places that he felt really really burnt by being forced to reveal the killer, the shows time being moved all about the scheduling (one way to lose many viewers) and that the show got axed. He/it was not treated well. He'd had it with doing tv. Which is why he insisted on complete creative control this time, enough to walk out on the project until he got exactly what he wanted. He wasn't going to ever put himself in that situation again as it had been too awful a situation the first time round - he'd not forgotten. Nothing to do with series 2 sucking, just the awful way that he and the show was treated by ABC.


I knew all that, Venus. Which is why Lynch's recent confessions about the quality of Season 2 completely floored me - here I was all these years under the impression Lynch was the one believing in his show when all others have given up and was fighting till the last second to get it renewed so he could do more magic, only for him saying now that the show became a piece of s... in Season 2 (basically degrading himself to the level of the masses who turned its back on it when the mystery of Laura's killer was revealed), which means he's retrospectively agreeing it was for the best that the show got put down in '91 (who knows, maybe he even suggested as much to the suits then). I truly feel like we've been suckers for loving something and living with it for 25+ years when its very creator thought/thinks it was crap (well, 2/3 of it, anyway).


Ah don't feel like that. We're not suckers for loving it for 25 + years. TP was a mix of many creators, not just Lynch and I actually don't care whether Lynch loved series 2 or not. Yeah, it's a flawed series and yeah I do ff over bits of it at times, but I still love it. It's up to him whether he likes it or not like it us up to me and you whether we like S3 or not. Yours, mine and Lynch's responses are valid but each others responses don't have to influence how we feel about each of the series. I'm sure that Lynch likely wouldn't give a f*** about what I think of S3 (and it ain't good) and I don't give one about what he thinks about S2 so we'd be equal in that. (haha love that you say the show was 'put down' - why that tickled me I do not know!)
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waferwhitemilk
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby waferwhitemilk » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:43 pm

I miss these guys:
Image
I guess what this new season has taught me, all its possible time travel themes notwithstanding, is that you can't go back in time, which admittedly isn't really Lynch's fault per se.
MysteryMan14
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby MysteryMan14 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:08 pm

Twin Peaks Podcast wrote:Specifically for this episode, if they are trying to explain the origin of BOB with this whole thing, I really don’t like it. It feels like explaining away the magic, sort of like how the Star Wars prequels handled the Force.

I preferred it when BOB and the Lodge entities were just malevolent spirits that had been haunting the woods in and around Twin Peaks for hundreds of years, since Native American times.
[/quote]
I know your pain here I always thought and felt the same way as you but I still stick to the mythology which was told us in previous seasons and in Frost's book. So what we've got
- in season 1 when Harry introduced Coop to the bookhouse boys he mentioned that the Woods around TP are different and they and those who were before them try to protect residents of TP.
- Hawk in season 2 clearly spoke that White and Black lodge are parts of his tribe' beliefs which as we can assume have got hundrets of years.
- the same was mentioned in the book that those woods had been haunted long Time before 1945.

I try to dont take what I saw in 8 ep. literally. I think that a nuke explosion only open some Gates and gave People from another place an opportunity to mess up in much simple ways than before but the core of TP didnt change at least for me.
I much more prefer a way which Lynch handled the convenient store story in FWWM than in ep. 8 where It was too much S-F for me. So chin up and remember that it's count what you bear in your heart even if Lynch tries to mess up.
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yaxomoxay
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:26 pm

Twin Peaks Podcast wrote:This is literally the only place I feel safe after this last episode. Anywhere else that I try to talk about my feelings on this new season I'm summarily told to GTFO...


While I certainly disagree with most people on this thread, as I love this season, and with good parts of your podcast (which I listen to), I will never understand why would people attack you - or anyone else - for disagreeing, especially on something really not important as a TV series. Whoever attacks you is a pure jerk. Dislike this series as much as you prefer.

I will never understand people that write on a forum and don't like people with different opinions. I always say that if I need someone to agree upon something I don't need anyone else but myself. Surprisingly, I always agree with myself.



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N. Needleman
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:27 pm

Agent Earle wrote:Maybe the poster who made that post jumped to conclusion re Frost's presence on the set as there really weren't that many photos of him there (I remember 1, maybe 2) and everyone has been silent as a tomb re Frost's role in the actual shoot - hence, his speculation seems more than valid to me.


Earle, a huge bulk of the shit we've seen in the last hour alone (and other parts) comes straight out of Mark Frost's book. It may not be explicated through pages of dialogue in the Twin Peaks Sheriff's Department conference room (yet), but it's all there in that text and people have been poring over it for the last 24-48 hours. Mark Frost would seem to be the furthest from out in the cold. BTW Mädchen Amick, among others, has also come out and specifically said a huge portion of Season 3's story is all Frost.

Further: I get that you want to take it as a personal offense that Lynch had an offhand comment about Season 2, but you have to understand the man's own point of view. His baby was fucked with because the network wanted the story wrapped up. He was deeply invested in that story, and the show was never the same after that compromise, nor was his career. If you were a creator in a similar position you'd likely have similar complicated feelings.

I love Season 2 but I know Lynch is not referring to all of it, and I don't take it personally. It's not about me or my love for the show in all its good, bad or both. It's about what he went through. It's not about validating you. Diving deep into a grudge with David Lynch over Season 2 after 25+ years seems like a pointless use of time to me.
Last edited by N. Needleman on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
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yaxomoxay
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:28 pm

Venus wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:
Venus wrote:
I've read in numerous places that he felt really really burnt by being forced to reveal the killer, the shows time being moved all about the scheduling (one way to lose many viewers) and that the show got axed. He/it was not treated well. He'd had it with doing tv. Which is why he insisted on complete creative control this time, enough to walk out on the project until he got exactly what he wanted. He wasn't going to ever put himself in that situation again as it had been too awful a situation the first time round - he'd not forgotten. Nothing to do with series 2 sucking, just the awful way that he and the show was treated by ABC.


I knew all that, Venus. Which is why Lynch's recent confessions about the quality of Season 2 completely floored me - here I was all these years under the impression Lynch was the one believing in his show when all others have given up and was fighting till the last second to get it renewed so he could do more magic, only for him saying now that the show became a piece of s... in Season 2 (basically degrading himself to the level of the masses who turned its back on it when the mystery of Laura's killer was revealed), which means he's retrospectively agreeing it was for the best that the show got put down in '91 (who knows, maybe he even suggested as much to the suits then). I truly feel like we've been suckers for loving something and living with it for 25+ years when its very creator thought/thinks it was crap (well, 2/3 of it, anyway).


Ah don't feel like that. We're not suckers for loving it for 25 + years. TP was a mix of many creators, not just Lynch and I actually don't care whether Lynch loved series 2 or not. Yeah, it's a flawed series and yeah I do ff over bits of it at times, but I still love it. It's up to him whether he likes it or not like it us up to me and you whether we like S3 or not. Yours, mine and Lynch's responses are valid but each others responses don't have to influence how we feel about each of the series. I'm sure that Lynch likely wouldn't give a f*** about what I think of S3 (and it ain't good) and I don't give one about what he thinks about S2 so we'd be equal in that. (haha love that you say the show was 'put down' - why that tickled me I do not know!)


Agreed. HP Lovecraft despised most of his own work, and died poor and convinced that he never created anything remotely interesting. Little did he know that his Cthulhu universe - and his various stories - would become celebrated works of art and a money making field!


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