Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Twin Peaks Podcast » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:55 am

Shoot, double post. Sorry.
Last edited by Twin Peaks Podcast on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mallard » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:56 am

oldforce wrote:
Twin Peaks Podcast wrote:
oldforce wrote:Well, I suppose I feel safe among my cohosts. You're right. But I was really referring to message boards, fan groups on facebook etc.

On the podcast, most of us range from very disappointed to mildly interested. Out of the hosts, I'd say that I like it the least, then Mel, then Brad and Caitlin is probably the most okay with it.


That was kind of what I was getting at. We seek out the company of those whose interests and ethics line up with our own. It isn't insensible to think you'd get a harsh reaction sharing an (extremely) minority view, since its clear many love the new season, and often time it feels like those who don't are personally affronted by it, thus starting a spiral of bad will between people.

I also was curious because though I'm really looking for a good podcast that has people actually debating the merits, I do feel I'd need someone who shares my opinion at least mostly that it's masterful and great, because I either get the frustration of not being able to insert myself into the conversation (casts being passive), or unchallenged theorizing and gushing.


I love the new series too, but you're right. There's been a ton of gushing on various Podcasts (I'm ok with theorizing.)

Love Twin Peaks Podcast btw. Bookhouse Noise Commentaries are fantastic!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby oldforce » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:08 am

Twin Peaks Podcast wrote:Shoot, double post. Sorry.


They're harvesting your Garmonbozia! I get your disappointment too, I have some close friends who feel the same way you do. My reaction to them is to hear them out and have a discussion about the different things we like or dislike and why, and (I know this doesn't mean much to anyone else) they have slowly been coming to terms that they actually like it more than they thought, but they found the journey painful to face. If someone is just going to dismiss you in the way of the internet (which I admit I have come close to doing when others give as much as they get), it's not truly engaging. If people feel comfortable sharing their views often times people come to appreciate the other more fully.

The way I look at it is the show is taking care to fully interrogate just those things which you loved about the first series, but that can be incredibly painful. It is strange (and wonderful to me), that someone like yourself can see one thing and find it *missing* and another can look at one thing and see it's *all there*. I also thought TP was certainly my favorite TV series of all-time, but I think The Return is going to slot right above "In a Lonely Place" or "Berlin Alexanderplatz" as in my top ten *cinema* of all time. I think it matters what matters to people how you'll receive it.

Vertigo
Au hasard balthazar
Sunrise: A Tale of Two Humans
L'Age d'or / The Age of Gold
Sans Soliel
Stalker
A Woman Under the Influence
Persona
<--- The Return (probably)
In A Lonely Place
Berlin Alexanderplatz

In another thread it might be appropriate for me to address the idea of character in TP and The Return and how I actually feel very much like this new show is very invested in character, just not telling us in the same way most shows do.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby oldforce » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:10 am

Mallard wrote:[quote="oldforce"

I love the new series too, but you're right. There's been a ton of gushing on various Podcasts (I'm ok with theorizing.)

Love Twin Peaks Podcast btw. Bookhouse Noise Commentaries are fantastic!


I guess I don't mind the theorizing too much but you get much better here on dugpa :)

It's not really just the gushing, because I agree I like it, it's just when it's not based in formal elements or grounded analysis.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Twin Peaks Podcast » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:18 am

Mallard wrote:
Love Twin Peaks Podcast btw. Bookhouse Noise Commentaries are fantastic!


Thanks very much!

Yeah those were lots of fun. I just hope all those guests i had on are still talking to me when this is over.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mallard » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:28 am

Twin Peaks Podcast wrote:
Mallard wrote:
Love Twin Peaks Podcast btw. Bookhouse Noise Commentaries are fantastic!


Thanks very much!

Yeah those were lots of fun. I just hope all those guests i had on are still talking to me when this is over.


I imagine they will. And you may end up liking The Return (or at least appreciating it) by the time it concludes. It took me the better part of a decade to really appreciate FWWM (which I think helped prepare me for The Return).
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Nikki Grace » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:08 am

How do people feel about the digital cinematography after E8? I thought it was simply stunning. And the visual effects remarkable, especially the physics textures of the bubble stream and the insect.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby counterpaul » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:11 am

oldforce wrote:In another thread it might be appropriate for me to address the idea of character in TP and The Return and how I actually feel very much like this new show is very invested in character, just not telling us in the same way most shows do.


I would love to read your thoughts on this. I completely agree that TPTR is profoundly character driven (yes, even--maybe especially--Part 8 ). Basically since FWWM, Lynch has been developing an inside-out method of character-driven storytelling and I find it absolutely thrilling. I think that in many ways The Return is even more character driven than the original series.

I continue to find this thread engaging despite the fact that I'm loving The Return because I fundamentally agree with a lot of people here that fantasy world-building mumbo jumbo is boring and I have no interest in trying to shoehorn Lynch's imagery into a consistent "mythology." I guess where I differ from a lot of people in this thread is that I think Lynch finds that stuff equally boring and it's simply not what he's doing in The Return at all--just like it wasn't what he was doing in Episode 2 or Episode 8 or Episode 29 or FWWM.

Twin Peaks is still 100% a story about human beings. What we're seeing is surrealism, not fantasy or symbolism meant to be decoded and reduced. The imagery is driven by emotion and is mean to be felt. What I felt in Part 8 was total chaos and destruction being met with a response of deep love and compassion and hope. This follows what is happening with Coop at this point in the narrative very naturally to me.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mallard » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:18 am

counterpaul wrote:
oldforce wrote:In another thread it might be appropriate for me to address the idea of character in TP and The Return and how I actually feel very much like this new show is very invested in character, just not telling us in the same way most shows do.


I would love to read your thoughts on this. I completely agree that TPTR is profoundly character driven (yes, even--maybe especially--Part 8 ). Basically since FWWM, Lynch has been developing an inside-out method of character-driven storytelling and I find it absolutely thrilling. I think that in many ways The Return is even more character driven than the original series.

I continue to find this thread engaging despite the fact that I'm loving The Return because I fundamentally agree with a lot of people here that fantasy world-building mumbo jumbo is boring and I have no interest in trying to shoehorn Lynch's imagery into a consistent "mythology." I guess where I differ from a lot of people in this thread is that I think Lynch finds that stuff equally boring and it's simply not what he's doing in The Return at all--just like it wasn't what he was doing in Episode 2 or Episode 8 or Episode 29 or FWWM.

Twin Peaks is still 100% a story about human beings. What we're seeing is surrealism, not fantasy or symbolism meant to be decoded and reduced. The imagery is driven by emotion and is mean to be felt. What I felt in Part 8 was total chaos and destruction being met with a response of deep love and compassion and hope. This follows what is happening with Coop at this point in the narrative very naturally to me.


I agree with this. Love it or hate it, I don't think Part 8 revealed as much as a lot people appear to believe.
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Re: RE: Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Dalai Cooper » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:36 am

LurkerAtTheThreshold wrote:
Panapaok wrote:
LurkerAtTheThreshold wrote:Saw some shots from Frost on set with Lynch obviously during filming of last episode, Frost said he was only on set that day they were filming his father. Does anyone else get the feeling that Lynch just went on this self righteous art trip when no one else was around, and no one saw the final thing until David Nevins called it 'pure heroine' or whatever.
This is incorrect, pure and simple. Frost was present during the whole WA filming, people from this forum who spectated the filming saw him pretty much every day. And he was present in at least some of the filming in LA, as evidenced by production stills.

Saying that this is just Lynch in his self righteous form and not noticing Frost's major influence in this episode (and series in general) is bizarre to say the least.



All I'm saying is... Lynch pulled out half way through this production, and was evidently going through some inner turmoil as evidenced by the emotional confusion in the narrative. Emotionally this thing is all over the shop

It's worth noting that Frost penned Secret history AFTER filming this. So maybe all those people who complained about Frost introducing all this mythology could consider the possibility that (like with the fire walk with me ring) Frost was attempting to make some sort of sense, of the many disordered threads of Lynch's subconscious.


This is cool fanfic but you should be able to say what you dislike about this season without making shit up about what happened during the shoot and the mental states of Lynch & Frost
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:09 pm

counterpaul wrote:
oldforce wrote:The imagery is driven by emotion and is mean to be felt. What I felt in Part 8 was total chaos and destruction being met with a response of deep love and compassion and hope. This follows what is happening with Coop at this point in the narrative very naturally to me.


Well I felt bemusement, disbelief and I actually laughed out loud when it ended. I know I'll be jumped on for this but it felt like it's the week that Mark Frost went on vacation (that's my opinion). One thing did pop into my mind - Lynch may still be very bitter about how things went down with ABC as if this episode wasn't a middle finger up to TV stations and their output or how seriously hurt he was by the way ABC treated the series, then I don't know what it was. I suspect that the ABC execs from the original series may be finally able to sleep well as their creative control and input on the series brought about the end of the original series (hence not sleeping well all these years since TP has been labelled as classic tv) but now seeing this they can rest assured that not giving complete creative control to Lynch/Frost prevented something like this being screened and also helped to create that original classic. What goes around comes around - sometimes it just takes time.

I could see the beauty in some of the shots - the purple waves were pretty lol. I could see the artiness of it all. I could see me reach for the ff button at some points but I resisted. Some of it was a bit spooky. But it was a David Lynch mini movie. And I've said it before on here and yes it is complete sacrilege, but I'm not a David Lynch fan (yes I know, this is likely a banning offence on here and I have put on my bullet proof jacket prior to posting this). I liked everything, and I mean truly everything, he brought to Twin Peaks 1 and 2. Wow, he was on his game then. FWWM - I appreciated it for what it was but never truly loved it (though the end scene in the red room is one of the best scenes in cinema history imo). I know all the backstory to all of TP and I know last nights ep tried to show some of that. But this, this output for S3, is a ludicrous mess and I seriously question why. I really truly intensely dislike the way this has gone. None of the original cast would ever speak out of turn about Lynch/Frost (apart from Michael J Anderson) but gosh I would love to somehow read their minds and see what exactly they are truly thinking, in an unedited and unfiltered way, about this new series.
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Re: RE: Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:16 pm

Dalai Cooper wrote:
LurkerAtTheThreshold wrote:
Panapaok wrote:This is incorrect, pure and simple. Frost was present during the whole WA filming, people from this forum who spectated the filming saw him pretty much every day. And he was present in at least some of the filming in LA, as evidenced by production stills.

Saying that this is just Lynch in his self righteous form and not noticing Frost's major influence in this episode (and series in general) is bizarre to say the least.



All I'm saying is... Lynch pulled out half way through this production, and was evidently going through some inner turmoil as evidenced by the emotional confusion in the narrative. Emotionally this thing is all over the shop

It's worth noting that Frost penned Secret history AFTER filming this. So maybe all those people who complained about Frost introducing all this mythology could consider the possibility that (like with the fire walk with me ring) Frost was attempting to make some sort of sense, of the many disordered threads of Lynch's subconscious.


This is cool fanfic but you should be able to say what you dislike about this season without making shit up about what happened during the shoot and the mental states of Lynch & Frost


There's a difference between "making shit up" and speculating. People have been doing the latter all over the place on Dugpa (and elsewhere).
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:21 pm

Venus wrote:
counterpaul wrote:
oldforce wrote:The imagery is driven by emotion and is mean to be felt. What I felt in Part 8 was total chaos and destruction being met with a response of deep love and compassion and hope. This follows what is happening with Coop at this point in the narrative very naturally to me.


Well I felt bemusement, disbelief and I actually laughed out loud when it ended. I know I'll be jumped on for this but it felt like it's the week that Mark Frost went on vacation (that's my opinion). One thing did pop into my mind - Lynch may still be very bitter about how things went down with ABC as if this episode wasn't a middle finger up to TV stations and their output or how seriously hurt he was by the way ABC treated the series, then I don't know what it was. I suspect that the ABC execs from the original series may be finally able to sleep well as their creative control and input on the series brought about the end of the original series (hence not sleeping well all these years since TP has been labelled as classic tv) but now seeing this they can rest assured that not giving complete creative control to Lynch/Frost prevented something like this being screened and also helped to create that original classic. What goes around comes around - sometimes it just takes time.

I could see the beauty in some of the shots - the purple waves were pretty lol. I could see the artiness of it all. I could see me reach for the ff button at some points but I resisted. Some of it was a bit spooky. But it was a David Lynch mini movie. And I've said it before on here and yes it is complete sacrilege, but I'm not a David Lynch fan (yes I know, this is likely a banning offence on here and I have put on my bullet proof jacket prior to posting this). I liked everything, and I mean truly everything, he brought to Twin Peaks 1 and 2. Wow, he was on his game then. FWWM - I appreciated it for what it was but never truly loved it (though the end scene in the red room is one of the best scenes in cinema history imo). I know all the backstory to all of TP and I know last nights ep tried to show some of that. But this, this output for S3, is a ludicrous mess and I seriously question why. I really truly intensely dislike the way this has gone. None of the original cast would ever speak out of turn about Lynch/Frost (apart from Michael J Anderson) but gosh I would love to somehow read their minds and see what exactly they are truly thinking, in an unedited and unfiltered way, about this new series.


Gosh, what a great post! Some excellent insights there about Lynch and ABC suits, kudos. One thing puzzles me though: why would Lynch still be bitter that things went down the way they did back in '91? He himself said loud and clear as of late that Season 2 sucked and that it, in fact, got so bad that he stopped watching the show...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:26 pm

Agent Earle wrote:
Venus wrote:
counterpaul wrote:


Well I felt bemusement, disbelief and I actually laughed out loud when it ended. I know I'll be jumped on for this but it felt like it's the week that Mark Frost went on vacation (that's my opinion). One thing did pop into my mind - Lynch may still be very bitter about how things went down with ABC as if this episode wasn't a middle finger up to TV stations and their output or how seriously hurt he was by the way ABC treated the series, then I don't know what it was. I suspect that the ABC execs from the original series may be finally able to sleep well as their creative control and input on the series brought about the end of the original series (hence not sleeping well all these years since TP has been labelled as classic tv) but now seeing this they can rest assured that not giving complete creative control to Lynch/Frost prevented something like this being screened and also helped to create that original classic. What goes around comes around - sometimes it just takes time.

I could see the beauty in some of the shots - the purple waves were pretty lol. I could see the artiness of it all. I could see me reach for the ff button at some points but I resisted. Some of it was a bit spooky. But it was a David Lynch mini movie. And I've said it before on here and yes it is complete sacrilege, but I'm not a David Lynch fan (yes I know, this is likely a banning offence on here and I have put on my bullet proof jacket prior to posting this). I liked everything, and I mean truly everything, he brought to Twin Peaks 1 and 2. Wow, he was on his game then. FWWM - I appreciated it for what it was but never truly loved it (though the end scene in the red room is one of the best scenes in cinema history imo). I know all the backstory to all of TP and I know last nights ep tried to show some of that. But this, this output for S3, is a ludicrous mess and I seriously question why. I really truly intensely dislike the way this has gone. None of the original cast would ever speak out of turn about Lynch/Frost (apart from Michael J Anderson) but gosh I would love to somehow read their minds and see what exactly they are truly thinking, in an unedited and unfiltered way, about this new series.


Gosh, what a great post! Some excellent insights there about Lynch and ABC suits, kudos. One thing puzzles me though: why would Lynch still be bitter that things went down the way they did back in '91? He himself said loud and clear as of late that Season 2 sucked and that it, in fact, got so bad that he stopped watching the show...


I've read in numerous places that he felt really really burnt by being forced to reveal the killer, the shows time being moved all about the scheduling (one way to lose many viewers) and that the show got axed. He/it was not treated well. He'd had it with doing tv. Which is why he insisted on complete creative control this time, enough to walk out on the project until he got exactly what he wanted. He wasn't going to ever put himself in that situation again as it had been too awful a situation the first time round - he'd not forgotten. Nothing to do with series 2 sucking, just the awful way that he and the show was treated by ABC.
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Re: RE: Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Dalai Cooper » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:39 pm

Agent Earle wrote:
Dalai Cooper wrote:
LurkerAtTheThreshold wrote:

All I'm saying is... Lynch pulled out half way through this production, and was evidently going through some inner turmoil as evidenced by the emotional confusion in the narrative. Emotionally this thing is all over the shop

It's worth noting that Frost penned Secret history AFTER filming this. So maybe all those people who complained about Frost introducing all this mythology could consider the possibility that (like with the fire walk with me ring) Frost was attempting to make some sort of sense, of the many disordered threads of Lynch's subconscious.


This is cool fanfic but you should be able to say what you dislike about this season without making shit up about what happened during the shoot and the mental states of Lynch & Frost


There's a difference between "making shit up" and speculating. People have been doing the latter all over the place on Dugpa (and elsewhere).



Actually saying mark frost wasn't present for filming and lynch pulled out halfway through production is making shit up. The fanfic about the creators' states of mind (see also recent posts about Lynch's bitterness at abc) might be comforting in the face of something you dislike being critically well-received but are kind of the last refuge of the scoundrel and don't exactly beg to be taken seriously.

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