Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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KnewItsPa
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:15 pm

Cairon wrote: Here is the thing. I want to like the new season, there are elements that I really like, but I just don't seem to connect to any of the characters. I still have episode 6 and 7 to go... so who knows... I might be wrong.


You're not wrong. It doesn't get better, it just continues at the same level.

Personally I found the Shelly / James scene quite touching. I think her saying James was cool was her being kind, in her way. And we know Shelly was never a good judge of character.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:31 pm

mlsstwrt wrote:David, I made the same point earlier in the thread, glad someone else feels like this. You said it better than I did but I think this is exactly it for me. I wanted to live in Twin Peaks, it would probably have been my one wish if a genie had come along.

I wouldn't want to live in THIS Twin Peaks, not at all.

Clearly this isn't the barometer of whether The Return is a success or not, I loved Breaking Bad and The Sopranos but wouldn't necessarily want to live in Albuquerque or New Jersey. But it is one reason for my disappointment, not getting to go back to that wonderful place again.

Yes, there's an undertone of contempt for the original show, mixed with creators' regret. It's as if they regret creating Twin Peaks, as was, so they made a new show that pays lip service to the original, but could equally have been something separate. Using the characters, however parodically, and some iconography allows them to call it Twin Peaks, but it's really a different show.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:06 pm

Regarding the contempt for the original show, I think it's fair to say that Lynch had a bit of contempt for it even during the original run in the episodes he helmed, or at least wasn't shy about doing his own thing. Look at episode 8, which totally changes the rhythms of season 1 and has characters behaving in a more odd fashion than they previously did or would again. I think it might be the series' best episode. Then in the series finale, I at least got the sense that Lynch was throwing the established storylines and even some of the characters in the trash. That made that episode probably the worst he directed. Then you have the movie which is quite different from the series, and now this. I'm not saying that the many problems of "Return" can be excused, but he has a pattern of presenting his own versions of characters.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby DirkG » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:02 am

IcedOver wrote:Regarding the contempt for the original show, I think it's fair to say that Lynch had a bit of contempt for it even during the original run in the episodes he helmed, or at least wasn't shy about doing his own thing. Look at episode 8, which totally changes the rhythms of season 1 and has characters behaving in a more odd fashion than they previously did or would again. I think it might be the series' best episode. Then in the series finale, I at least got the sense that Lynch was throwing the established storylines and even some of the characters in the trash. That made that episode probably the worst he directed. Then you have the movie which is quite different from the series, and now this. I'm not saying that the many problems of "Return" can be excused, but he has a pattern of presenting his own versions of characters.


Change 'worst' for 'best' in your third to last sentence and you have a quite spot on analysis.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby BOB1 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:53 am

KnewItsPa wrote:
Cairon wrote: I still have episode 6 and 7 to go... so who knows... I might be wrong.


You're not wrong. It doesn't get better, it just continues at the same level.


Let Cairon judge for himself but I will be surprised if he is not one of those who react very positively to Part 7 ("at last!!").


Cairon wrote:Seeing Lucy and Andy felt like I was watching a mean-spirited parody of the original seasons. These two characters might have always been a bit odd, but they were never this odd. Odd isn't the right word, Lucy and Andy seemed to be parodies of themselves. That one characteristic they shared, blown up and dominate their persons. They're idiots, dangerously idiotic to the point where I'm not watching adults capable of taking care of themselves. At first it seemed like a short joke, but it's the same deal every time they show up on camera. Lucy and Andy are played for laughs, but the joke isn't good-natured, it feels hostile and mean-spirited.

I agree totally about Andy and Lucy, you voiced my feelings exactly. But not with others - I like Hawk as he is here, I liked the Shelly/James scene very much and didn't find it mean-spirited to a least extent. Still, I wonder how you are going to feel about the portraying of old characters after Ep.7. Let us know!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby BOB1 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:01 am

David Locke wrote:The original series (and also FWWM but ESPECIALLY S1 and S2) were not just artful, but amazing escapism. And not in a cheap sense but in the best sense. You felt like you lived in Twin Peaks each episode. It was a warm and comfortable and cozy place, with a sinister and ominous core, but even the evil in it made it no less enjoyable to spend time in. Darkness was always enticing in its own way, or at least balanced out by Angelo's immersive score and the orange/red-tinted, earthy, eye-candy surroundings, and the sense that Good existed just as darkness did.

And that's a big part of the appeal and why I, and many, return to those episodes and that film, from 1990-1992. It feels all of a piece despite FWWM obviously having a different approach.

Now here comes TP:TR 25+ years later, and naturally it's completely different. And you have to accept this to get any enjoyment out of it. And I have accepted it. And I do enjoy it... but, I doubt I will ever hold it on the same level as the original Peaks material. (...)
So I do very much like TP:TR, it has had a lot of great stuff, but I suspect that the best is yet to come... and even that I'm not sure I'll ever hold in the same regard as the 1990-1992 TP. We'll see, I guess.

Yes, we'll see. but so far I have exactly the same feeling!

And of course ...

counterpaul wrote:... I also think it's important to note that Twin Peaks, as a piece of art, was always (at it's best, at least) about complicating, rather than embracing, that cozy warmth the town exuded. I think it's absolutely crucial to always remember that, at its core, Twin Peaks is the story of a town that essentially let a young victim of abuse die so that it could hold on to its denial. "All you good people," as Bobby says at Laura's funeral.

It's built into the story from the very beginning. It essentially is the story.

Of course, that doesn't invalidate the charm. And it doesn't mean that everyone in Twin Peaks is rotten at the core. It's not that simple. The tension between the truth, the fact that BOB basically manifested out of everyone's inability to state it (and, thus, their inability to help Laura before it was too late), and the fact that most of the people in town are in fact genuinely good people, and that the charm of the town is also genuine, is what defines the brilliance of the show.

But to watch it and not acknowledge that tension--to let the charm stand uninterrogated--seems dishonest to me.


But I don't see any contradiction here. What counterpaul has written about is just the next level. It's going deeper into it and it's making the fans love it even more. Because it turns out it's not only "the cozy warmth" and you can find endless mysteries there. The tension makes it alive all the time. Without it, probably the appeal of Twin Peaks wouldn't be alive after 25 years, either. What was needed was what you both write about: creating a place which people loved AND the tension which is built into the story.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Cairon » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:45 am

BOB1 wrote:I agree totally about Andy and Lucy, you voiced my feelings exactly. But not with others - I like Hawk as he is here, I liked the Shelly/James scene very much and didn't find it mean-spirited to a least extent. Still, I wonder how you are going to feel about the portraying of old characters after Ep.7. Let us know!


When I first saw the scene I had feelings running through my veins. It felt like a genuine moment. James regressing after an accident, not being quite right anymore, and Shelly commenting on it to her friends. It felt like Shelly was defending James, because his disability wasn't directly visible, but also repeating a mantra to make James feel good about himself, despite not hearing it. The scene was short and touching, I felt for James, poor James, poor damaged James. I felt or Shelly, who seemed free from her past, but not quite.

It was just that one honest moment, that got turned into something hollow by the various other scenes that came after it. I liked it when I saw it first, in sort of a vacuum, but the moment it became part of the whole, it lost the emotional punch. Because of course James is stuck in the past and has literal brain-damage. Of course Shelly is complaining about her daughter having a boyfriend who is all kinds of wrong, and of course Shelly locks eyes with one giant red flag of a stranger in a bar.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:07 am

Why are you assuming James is brain damaged? He seemed fine to me. Shelly says he's just quiet. Lots of people become withdrawn after a traumatic experience, and James was always presented as the brooding/romantic type to begin with. Hell, Big Ed aside, I don't think James had a meaningful social interaction with anyone on the original show besides women he was sexually involved with. Exposition Malcolm might he the closest thing he had to a friend. :lol: i'd argue that his friendship with Freddie Sikes is a massive leap forward for him!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:00 am

I've got to say that, even though I've enjoyed many Dougie moments, it's time. If the next hour doesn't either significantly advance the story or have him "wake up," I can't say I have much hope for the long-term health of this show. Having this story extend to the end or near the end of the show would be extreme folly. While the initial absurdist feel of these scenes was amusing, to be honest, Dougie Coop's behavior is starting to feel uncomfortably close to an exaggeration of someone who is mentally challenged, more than anything else. What was trying to be said with this character has been said, and it's time to progress past it.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:15 am

IcedOver wrote:I've got to say that, even though I've enjoyed many Dougie moments, it's time. If the next hour doesn't either significantly advance the story or have him "wake up," I can't say I have much hope for the long-term health of this show. Having this story extend to the end or near the end of the show would be extreme folly. While the initial absurdist feel of these scenes was amusing, to be honest, Dougie Coop's behavior is starting to feel uncomfortably close to an exaggeration of someone who is mentally challenged, more than anything else. What was trying to be said with this character has been said, and it's time to progress past it.


I very much agree with this sentiment. Hopefully after seeing him tackling short little hitman, he'll be returning back sooner than later. I can be impatient in real life, as we all can, but I generally have patience though my patience has worn to the end of it's rapidly fraying rope with good Cooper and his mental state. It's a shame he's not progressing in returning to who he is in dog years as he'd be up to about 40 or 50 years of age by now and able to hold a conversation and deliver some plot line.

I see a lot of Lynch/Frost making commentary about the state of the world through this new series. The dislike that everything has to be immediate, that modern technology isn't such a good thing. The 'be patient and take the time to just breathe and watch people sweeping and painting shovels and watch grown men acting like 2 year olds'. It's like a test of patience. Forcing people to do that. In that way, the commentary and art of it is interesting. I was not one of those who tuned out during Senior Droolcup's scenes in TP2 series opener - it didn't bother me at all. But at times the new series feels a bit lecturing of these things - Jacobys rants about the world as it is now are a mouthpiece for them and a case in point. I know the world is a pretty crap place to be these days - the news is massively depressing. I just wish what I was watching in TP3 wasn't quite as depressing and gloomy to watch. I want to jump in and envelop myself in a world of glorious warmth and intrigue but instead I find myself dipping my toe in a cold, shallow puddle. Before anyone says, 'But the original show was all about incest and murder at the heart of it' - yes I know that but for me one of the many clever things about it was the way it was packaged up and sold to the world who didn't necessarily realise that was what they were watching. Think of all those people who held TP parties and events and then think of what the story was really truly about - how in bad taste do those parties seem then? Hopefully the cold puddle will soon turn into a warm oasis to take a dip into.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:33 am

IcedOver wrote:I've got to say that, even though I've enjoyed many Dougie moments, it's time. If the next hour doesn't either significantly advance the story or have him "wake up," I can't say I have much hope for the long-term health of this show. Having this story extend to the end or near the end of the show would be extreme folly. While the initial absurdist feel of these scenes was amusing, to be honest, Dougie Coop's behavior is starting to feel uncomfortably close to an exaggeration of someone who is mentally challenged, more than anything else. What was trying to be said with this character has been said, and it's time to progress past it.


His behavior is consistent with someone who had their brain fried/scrambled by spending 25 years in a nether, dream world, then being catapulted into nothingness, before being reborn into the real world by going through and electric socket.

In fact, in makes perfect sense, though I think if Coop came back into the world the way he was supposed to (through Glastonbury Grove), he would not be nearly as disoriented.

The absurdity is not so much Coop's behavior but the fact that he hasn't been taken to a doctor or a hospital yet. But this is Twin Peaks- it's always had quite a bit of absurdity in its story lines (as in, an FBI agent who solves cases through dreams and visions).
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:40 am

mtwentz wrote:
IcedOver wrote:I've got to say that, even though I've enjoyed many Dougie moments, it's time. If the next hour doesn't either significantly advance the story or have him "wake up," I can't say I have much hope for the long-term health of this show. Having this story extend to the end or near the end of the show would be extreme folly. While the initial absurdist feel of these scenes was amusing, to be honest, Dougie Coop's behavior is starting to feel uncomfortably close to an exaggeration of someone who is mentally challenged, more than anything else. What was trying to be said with this character has been said, and it's time to progress past it.



The absurdity is not so much Coop's behavior but the fact that he hasn't been taken to a doctor or a hospital yet. But this is Twin Peaks- it's always had quite a bit of absurdity in its story lines (as in, an FBI agent who solves cases through dreams and visions).


Yes when Janey mentioned she was going to take him to a doctor I think, phew about time someone noticed he needs one!!! It is absurd but hey it's tv and not real life.

Are you sure you want to be posting on this thread MT with all us 'Debbie Downers' as you called us in another thread? :?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:56 am

mtwentz wrote:His behavior is consistent with someone who had their brain fried/scrambled by spending 25 years in a nether, dream world, then being catapulted into nothingness, before being reborn into the real world by going through and electric socket.


Right, that's all good, but the gag has run its course. I'm not normally one to criticize stuff that's not PC (in fact I love anti-PC stuff), but like I said, if you take a step back and look at it outside of the Lynchworld viewpoint, his behavior isn't so funny.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:45 am

Venus wrote:
mtwentz wrote:
IcedOver wrote:I've got to say that, even though I've enjoyed many Dougie moments, it's time. If the next hour doesn't either significantly advance the story or have him "wake up," I can't say I have much hope for the long-term health of this show. Having this story extend to the end or near the end of the show would be extreme folly. While the initial absurdist feel of these scenes was amusing, to be honest, Dougie Coop's behavior is starting to feel uncomfortably close to an exaggeration of someone who is mentally challenged, more than anything else. What was trying to be said with this character has been said, and it's time to progress past it.



The absurdity is not so much Coop's behavior but the fact that he hasn't been taken to a doctor or a hospital yet. But this is Twin Peaks- it's always had quite a bit of absurdity in its story lines (as in, an FBI agent who solves cases through dreams and visions).


Yes when Janey mentioned she was going to take him to a doctor I think, phew about time someone noticed he needs one!!! It is absurd but hey it's tv and not real life.

Are you sure you want to be posting on this thread MT with all us 'Debbie Downers' as you called us in another thread? :?


Hah, hah, you caught that Debbie Downer remark. It's all in good fun :-)
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:22 pm

BOB1 wrote:
KnewItsPa wrote:
Cairon wrote: I still have episode 6 and 7 to go... so who knows... I might be wrong.


You're not wrong. It doesn't get better, it just continues at the same level.


Let Cairon judge for himself but I will be surprised if he is not one of those who react very positively to Part 7 ("at last!!").


Of course, he'll judge for himself. Me writing words on an internet forum won't bend his mind, but there is no point in hoping something is suddenly going to click and we're back in Twin Peaks. Part 7 is not any real departure from the previous 6 episodes in terms of plot, tone, pacing, snese of place or anything else. Maybe for some people a kind of televisual Stockholm syndrome sets in. Don't get me wrong Inland Empire the TV series would be great, but yeah, that gum I like didn't come back in style.

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Venus wrote:'But the original show was all about incest and murder at the heart of it'


The Palmer Case was never the heart of it. That was the initial mystery that drew us into Twin Peaks. The original show was about exploring the lives of the characters around that mystery, and into the world around (and beyond) it. One of the reasons ratings dropped after the Palmer Case was solved is that people didn't really get that Twin Peaks was more a soap opera than a murder-mystery, which was only one of the threads. Eastenders isn't about the death of Reg Cox (sorry, british analogy), it just serves a dramatic purpose of introducing some of the main characters.
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