Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[BOB1]

It's like going from the viewpoint of a normal thinking feeling person, who finds characters and people interesting, to one of a complete sociopath unable to understand or care about emotions.

Indeed! The Return as a sociopathic piece of art... that' s quite a definition!

It's really sad to think when you think deeper about Lynch's previous work (like you said, Elephant Man, Straight Story... but only those, the 'dark' ones too). In another thread Gabriel wrote:

David Lynch set a standard for me with his beautiful, dark movies with their optimistic beating heart and love of life beneath all the ugliness. TPTR was made by a David Lynch who seems to have talked himself into being his own evil doppelgänger/tulpa.

Sociopathic tulpa. Damn, what has the world come to

[Eva Marie]

I'm aware of the separate gender thread but I still would like to mention here that the blatant misogyny has been unbearable in TR even by cable show and overall problematic Lynch standards. Older women are ridiculous nagging caricatures, younger ones are naked and lingerie-clad victims offered up to be horrifically murdered, and the single non-Hollywood sized woman was introduced only to be beaten to near death (Miriam). I still can't get the killing of Darya out of my head - it was the single sickest thing I've seen. And when TR wasn't busy brutalising, killing and sexploiting female bodies, it offered us the 'joys' of retro archetypes Tammy and French call girl.

[musicaddict]

I'm aware of the separate gender thread but I still would like to mention here that the blatant misogyny has been unbearable in TR even by cable show and overall problematic Lynch standards. Older women are ridiculous nagging caricatures, younger ones are naked and lingerie-clad victims offered up to be horrifically murdered, and the single non-Hollywood sized woman was introduced only to be beaten to near death (Miriam). I still can't get the killing of Darya out of my head - it was the single sickest thing I've seen. And when TR wasn't busy brutalising, killing and sexploiting female bodies, it offered us the 'joys' of retro archetypes Tammy and French call girl.

I wanted to give Lynch/Frost the benefit of the doubt but I have to agree with all you have said.

[BOB1]

Is there any way to salvage the original show after this? I don't want to think about Diane being raped or having awkward sex with Coop every time he brings out his tape recorder. I don't want to remember that all of seasons one and two get erased from existence because Coop inexplicably goes back in time and "saves" Laura (except he doesn't really because "Laura" no longer exists). I fear that the only closure I might get is to just disconnect from this show and expunge it from my life.

Sure, and do it! I mean, it shouldn't even be difficult. The Cooper-Diane story in The Return is so very incoherent with whatever material we used to have that there is no connection I can think of. I even sort of liked the Diane plot here but I just treat it like a far out variation on the theme started in the old Twin Peaks. Interesting as such but not interfering with the original.

And as for the 'erasing/retconning' part, God I wish I could somehow lend you guys some of my peace about it - cause I know VERY well what bothers you and yet I don't feel it affects me (lucky me). Like I said somewhere before: I don't see that even Cooper's time travel and his attempt to turn back time invalidates any of the beauty or tragedy of Twin Peaks or Fire Walk With Me. It all matters! it is happening again and all over again! Don't let anyone or anything convince you that it's all gone to hell!

[boske]

I'm aware of the separate gender thread but I still would like to mention here that the blatant misogyny has been unbearable in TR even by cable show and overall problematic Lynch standards. Older women are ridiculous nagging caricatures, younger ones are naked and lingerie-clad victims offered up to be horrifically murdered, and the single non-Hollywood sized woman was introduced only to be beaten to near death (Miriam). I still can't get the killing of Darya out of my head - it was the single sickest thing I've seen. And when TR wasn't busy brutalising, killing and sexploiting female bodies, it offered us the 'joys' of retro archetypes Tammy and French call girl.

I think we really need to see the original script, I simply do not believe that most of these scenes are there. I agree with you by the way 100%.

[Eva Marie]

What's really sad is that was quite a no. of good bits of material scattered all through this - watching felt like sifting for a few diamonds in a pile of manure. Their presence only makes it all more painful because it makes you think of what could've been and all the lost potential. That 5% of art only makes the other 95% seem like even worse garbage that if it had been 100% awful.

[nick1218]

Just imagine - you make a work whose very point is to antagonise an audience. Then the audience showers you with praise, calling every episode genius. How would you feel about that? How would you feel if you spit in someone's face and their reaction wasn't to punch you as hard as possible but lick up that spit while purring, 'Mmmmmm..... delicious.'

That's how I feel about this. I wouldn't post it outside of this thread because I appreciate it's offensive to fans. But it is how I feel about this and I'm interested in discussing it with OTHER PEOPLE WHO FEEL THE SAME WAY. Not out to offend anyone. There is no way Lynch would make this and not be conscious about how much it would piss people off. I don't think he would be at all surprised by this thread. Maybe he would be surprised by the threads calling this the greatest work ever produced and I can only imagine it would increase his epic cynicism even further.

That would have to feel like being in some sort of a personal hell, Audrey Horne style. If S4 were ever to come back, maybe it'd be even nastier.

There is one way - there is something wrong with him in his head. I seriously think he has a screw loose and it worked great from the mid 70's to the end of the century and then not so much

[AnotherBlueRoseCase]

I'm aware of the separate gender thread but I still would like to mention here that the blatant misogyny has been unbearable in TR even by cable show and overall problematic Lynch standards. Older women are ridiculous nagging caricatures, younger ones are naked and lingerie-clad victims offered up to be horrifically murdered, and the single non-Hollywood sized woman was introduced only to be beaten to near death (Miriam). I still can't get the killing of Darya out of my head - it was the single sickest thing I've seen. And when TR wasn't busy brutalising, killing and sexploiting female bodies, it offered us the 'joys' of retro archetypes Tammy and French call girl.

I think we really need to see the original script, I simply do not believe that most of these scenes are there. I agree with you by the way 100%.

And the notes scribbled on beermats, napkins and the like.

BASE 18-PART STRUCTURE ON ULYSSES.
INFORM AUDIENCE WOMEN 40+ = HAGS.
INFORM AUDIENCE AM STILL HARD U-KNOW-WHERE.

[cgs027]

I keep seeing people talk about Cooper's "hero complex" being his downfall and this being some sort of moral lesson. I call BS on that. If he was driven by some sort of internal need to save the day (and knew he had the ability, via Jefferies, to go back in time), would not his FIRST impulse be to prevent Caroline's death? This was his first love, this is what ended up poisoning his trip to the lodge with Annie, etc... Instead, his whole focus was two birds with one stone, implying Judy was part of this equation.

In that case, Cooper is trivialized to some sort of Lovecraftian pawn to the forces of the cosmos, period. He is simply following orders, nothing more.

Kind of zaps the humanity out of this whole thing.

[Eva Marie]

Luckily, I'm in the camp of those that did not have the original TP ruined for them by TR. This is because I simply cannot take TR seriously - I just view it as ravings of a lunatic that are completely unconnected to the old TP. It's like someone stealing a masterpiece from the Louvre, running amok with it, tearing it apart and graffitying with a bunch of obscenities.

Can you imagine if Showtime had possessed the temerity put their foot down in that dispute and fired Lynch instead of giving in to his diva demands? They could've kept Frost on board and hired some of the original TP writers and directors who are still around. One can only dream...Coop needs to go back and create a new timeline with Lynch staying the hell away from this project.

[boske]

I'm aware of the separate gender thread but I still would like to mention here that the blatant misogyny has been unbearable in TR even by cable show and overall problematic Lynch standards. Older women are ridiculous nagging caricatures, younger ones are naked and lingerie-clad victims offered up to be horrifically murdered, and the single non-Hollywood sized woman was introduced only to be beaten to near death (Miriam). I still can't get the killing of Darya out of my head - it was the single sickest thing I've seen. And when TR wasn't busy brutalising, killing and sexploiting female bodies, it offered us the 'joys' of retro archetypes Tammy and French call girl.

I think we really need to see the original script, I simply do not believe that most of these scenes are there. I agree with you by the way 100%.

And the notes scribbled on beermats, napkins and the like.

BASE 18-PART STRUCTURE ON ULYSSES.
INFORM AUDIENCE WOMEN 40+ = HAGS.
INFORM AUDIENCE AM STILL HARD U-KNOW-WHERE.

Voilà! https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comm ... script_in/

[Eva Marie]

As for loose screws: Isabella Rosselini commented that Lynch LAUGHED during the shooting of the rape scene in Blue Velvet. Even knowing that there is a phenomenon of some people laughing to alleviate discomfort in awkward situations, it really makes you wonder...

[anthoto1]

The level of sheer hate on this topic has become insane.

"Call for help"'

[BOB1]

Anthoto1 !!!!!!!!!!!1



OOps, sorry.

BOB-Ball '17, as I think one poster calls it, was easily, hands down the single worst sequence in all of Peaks. Yes, including the Little Nicky thought-bubble; yes, including Nadine going back to high school and throwing some kid 1,000 feet in the air; yes, including everything Evelyn Marsh; yes, including Ben Horne's Civil War phase, or the pine weasel, or Lana's witchy woman enchantin' the whole sheriff's station with her sexy wummen powers... no, as lame as those things were, at least they were not meant to be an extremely serious scene, a scene which shows the defeat of THE villain of Twin Peaks, at least the original run. (Some of them were also fairly brief, compared to the extended BOB-Ball scene which makes us watch in its entirety with no respite).

Single worst sequence in all of Peaks - hmmm what an interesting idea for yet another topic that I would like to create and probably never will By the way, is there such a topic on dugpa? I'll still go with the evolution of the arm, though, which is for me repulsive, even if BOB-ball '17 is stupider.

Oddly, I actually love Part 18. I think along with Part 8 it's the only time we've gotten something really exceptional, original and well-executed in most every way

I certainly don't love it (any of the two) but I would agree that these two parts had one thing nothing else had on The Return: artistic self-discipline. These were the two patrs that were structured, not random, not part of...

18 hours of footage dumped on a desk, lazily sorted out but forgetting some pieces here and there and ultimately creating a narrative structure that feels incomplete when it doesn't feel plain pointless.

... I'm quoting cause I have trouble finding words as adequately as you, thanks a lot

I can also pick out, say, 3, 7, 9, 11 and 16 as standouts, but I'm hesitant to say that they're anything special.

Exactly so. Actually as for the choice of episodes, I would swap 9 (which I didn't like) for 5 (which I liked a lot) and add 14... that was the good part. But I double that: nothing special.

[BOB1]

erase me!