Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[Mr. Reindeer]

I find that as early as Episodes 10, 12, 13 and 15 the cracks start to show (11 is of course painful), but those hours still have a lot to recommend them, and might not be any more or less uneven than the average Part of TR (again, I need to let TR settle in my mind a bit more, and possibly rewatch both series, before I commit myself).

Why on Earth is the 11th episode of the original run "painful"? And why do you say "the cracks start to show" with episodes you listed above?

This is probably better suited to the Episode 11 thread, but, briefly: calling it "of course painful" was maybe not my best word choice -- Todd Holland and Ray Wise created an incredible opening sequence, one of TP's all-time best scenes, I like Clinton Sternwood a whole lot (wish we'd gotten more of him), and some of the storm stuff has a nice mood. But the MT Wentz scenes and especially the awful stuff with Andy chasing his sperm around are really the start of C-grade TP subplots in full force, and the episode generally has a flat feeling no doubt due to the Stahl fiasco and the writers having to bang out a script quickly (not their fault). In any event, I don't think my words (while overly harsh) represent an unpopular or unthinkable opinion; I think even Mark has said he considers it a weaker episode.

As to the cracks beginning to show, the aforementioned episodes introduce a variety of the corny sitcom-style subplots that I really dislike and feel are tonally inappropriate for the show that TP had been up to that point (teenage/super strong Nadine, the aforementioned Andy/Lucy/Dick stuff, Pinkle's antics, etc.).

[IcedOver]

I was just thinking that if this show doesn't finish strong, it'll be truly heartbreaking. The show has had many ups and downs in terms of quality (with Part 15 being a "down"), but I've thought that if Lynch were able to conclude this in a powerful way, it would make the show work. Considering how "macro" the plotting has been, and only three hours left, I truly doubt it's going to happen. The momentum just isn't with it.

[rugerblackhawk357]

lorne malvo. lorne malvo from fargo season 1. not the doppelcoop we needed, but the doppelcoop we deserved. my hallucinatory alternate storyline created after my disappointment has begun in earnest.

[David Locke]

Man I wish I could keep pace with all the good stuff that gets posted in this thread after I drop in, ignoring the trolls for a moment that is.

I guess for me it boils down to prizing the aesthetic or overall vibe of the original series more than that of TR, so even the weaker episodes of it (though maybe not, say, 19, 21, 22 or 28) have a charm for me that a lot of TR doesnt.

But I realize TR is quite deliberately made to be give off the opposite of that comforting "charm" like the original, so I understand... I just don't take to it nearly as much, on its own terms or in comparison. I'm fine with the sheer amount of differences between it and the original, nothing wrong with that and that's how it probably should be; but again as someone said, conception is one thing while the actual execution of many things leaves me befuddled.

And as far as those differences go, the widening of the scope of not only locations but the mythology - so that things have a grand epic sci-fi feel, and the mythology takes center stage both visually and verbally.... I'm not into that. I like the sheer mystery of Ep 2 and 29, for instance, and even when 29 and FWWM made it clear there were supernatural or interdimensional beings that actually existed, basically, it was on a more abstract and allegorical level that totally worked.

In TR though it's all rather literal minded. And it's often fine in its own way, indeed often excellent - but it's hard to see as the correct way to continue this particular story. I also really miss the sheer intimacy of the original series and FWWM, the focus on Laura and even the whole town felt quite contained and intimate even if bigger in scope sometimes. It felt like, from the pre release tidbits we got, casting of Lee, plus the first couple episodes, TR would continue that intimacy or at least with regard to Laura - but we only have three hours left and Laura has had one scene, essentially. We've gotten an intimate look at Coop, if in a very odd or roundabout way, but Laura? I just hope she's very present in 16-18.

And then if we get into the structure of the thing and editing and the whole fragmented feel, and the characters, that's where for me TR really has largely dropped the ball.


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[Here Comes That Bob]

just as matter of interest, does anyone here seriously think that ''the return'' is worse than ep's 16 - 28 of series 2?

Since you've asked, I'll answer you candidly. Not only do I believe "the return" is worse but I'd also go as far to say that the worst episode of S2 is still better than any episode of TPTR. Even the worst episode of S2 had an undeniable endearing charm and af least one sequence I could always go back on and appreciate. TPTR has so far been noting but self-indulgent, incoherent mess consisted of grotesque images that fail to resonate with me on any meaningful level. I'm just gutted that Lynch decided to throw away all the ingredients that made old TP such a phenomenal show and instead tried to create a fusion of MD and Eraserhead. If this wasn't labeled as a legitimate continuation, I probably wouldn't be so dissapointed but because it is, I can't help buf to feel that way. And even if I viewed TR as a separate project I'd still think its a gigantic rubbish.

Not trying to take a shot at anyone who enjoyes TR , but I can't help but to wonder if TR would be so glorified if it didn't have a Lynch label on it. Nowadays it seems that Lynch could take a shit on a watermelon and people all around a world would proclaim it masterpiece.

[mlsstwrt]

Count me as one (who thinks so). I think the whole run of the original - very much including the dreaded so-called "slump" and the majority of plotlines you've listed (in particular the "Heather Graham" and "Wyndham Earle" arcs) - is brilliance personified. The new one? Ain't all that.

Ok. Just checking

FWIW I agree with you on this. I think Ep 16-28 are absolutely terrible. I couldn't argue that The Return is any worse.

[Agent Earle]

You engaged me, not the other way around. But okay, tell me more about how I do not care for or disdain the original series in favor of The Return (I don't), or how I'm actually a "hardcore Lynch fan" who prefers his larger body of work to Twin Peaks (I'm not).

You obviously have many thoughts about this topic. This can't be in any way a matter of personal perspective or taste, so as you and David say, the fault must be in me - I must not be a proper fan of the original show. Explain me to me so that you can emotionally process people enjoying both parts of a series when you personally find one irreconciliable.

Well, "engaged" is one way of looking at it. Using your assertion as a starting point to make my one*** in reference to David's original assertion is another.

What is your assertion?

***Edit: should have been written "to make my OWN".

And to answer your question: that (I agree with David Locke that) a majority of the people who're watching the new show and loving it seem to not like the old show all that much or simply think the new show is way better than the old one. I arrived at this conclusion by going through tons of posts on various forums/message boards, but I haven't conducted a survey, should you wonder. Nor was I speaking directly about your or watchlar's attitude towards Peaks old and new, as your defensive reply suggests.

[Agent Earle]

I find that as early as Episodes 10, 12, 13 and 15 the cracks start to show (11 is of course painful), but those hours still have a lot to recommend them, and might not be any more or less uneven than the average Part of TR (again, I need to let TR settle in my mind a bit more, and possibly rewatch both series, before I commit myself).

Why on Earth is the 11th episode of the original run "painful"? And why do you say "the cracks start to show" with episodes you listed above?

This is probably better suited to the Episode 11 thread, but, briefly: calling it "of course painful" was maybe not my best word choice -- Todd Holland and Ray Wise created an incredible opening sequence, one of TP's all-time best scenes, I like Clinton Sternwood a whole lot (wish we'd gotten more of him), and some of the storm stuff has a nice mood. But the MT Wentz scenes and especially the awful stuff with Andy chasing his sperm around are really the start of C-grade TP subplots in full force, and the episode generally has a flat feeling no doubt due to the Stahl fiasco and the writers having to bang out a script quickly (not their fault). In any event, I don't think my words (while overly harsh) represent an unpopular or unthinkable opinion; I think even Mark has said he considers it a weaker episode.

As to the cracks beginning to show, the aforementioned episodes introduce a variety of the corny sitcom-style subplots that I really dislike and feel are tonally inappropriate for the show that TP had been up to that point (teenage/super strong Nadine, the aforementioned Andy/Lucy/Dick stuff, Pinkle's antics, etc.).

I see, thanks for the explanation. Now that you mention them, those scenes/developments in E 11 truly don't measure up to the dramatic core of the series at that (or any) point at best and are a lot of boring, worthless drivel at worst. The same goes for the "sitcom" (as you aptly termed it) material showing up in eps 10, 12, 13 and 15. Funny, though: even though the amount of this dreck increases majorly as the show progresses beyond the resolution of the Laura Palmer saga, my overall enjoyment of the Peaks remains/-ed undiminished to the very end - probably due to my vast (and pretty controversial, regarding the general fandom sentiment) liking of the main storyline becoming Cooper's past coming back to haunt him (Earle) at the worst possible time (romance with Annie) and a gradual enforcement of the supernatural mythology (Bob, the Lodges) that eventually took over completely.

Judge Clinton Sternwood, however, is one of my favorite characters in TP ever.

[boske]

Well, to be fair, there is something that has evolved here. The Arm.

[mlsstwrt]

I don't watch Season 2 after Episode 15. I find it worthless. Of course Ep29 is different but I often don't end up watching that. I like watching up to the end of Episode 15. The Pilot and Ep14 are my favourite. And I love FWWM. I think it is very different from the Series but it pulls back the curtain of Twin Peaks in an incredibly coherent way. It shows what is going on behind the coffee and cherry pie and it isn't pretty (although it's still hauntingly beautiful at times).

The Return is just..... something different.

There are too many things in The Return that I could say similar things about but the atmosphere in The Diner always gets me. Just so different to the original (and I'm sure this is deliberate). It always seems rammed and always just random faces. The atmosphere in the real life Twede's is actually probably better than in The Return. Whereas the first time I went into Twede's I was disappointed by how poor the atmosphere was compared to in the original. I guess the idea that Lynch wanted Twin Peaks in TR to be an unwelcoming, hostile place must be true. It's absolutely impossible that Lynch doesn't realise what he's done to the town, right?

[douglasb]

What's the 'official' response been like John 'WIP' Thorne seems positive. What about Brad Dukes (who didn't like FWWM)?

[Mr. Reindeer]

What's the 'official' response been like John 'WIP' Thorne seems positive. What about Brad Dukes (who didn't like FWWM)?

Seems like Brad hasn't commented on here since a couple days before the new series began.

[mlsstwrt]

What's the 'official' response been like John 'WIP' Thorne seems positive. What about Brad Dukes (who didn't like FWWM)?

Seems like Brad hasn't commented on here since a couple days before the new series began.

Maybe he's in mourning?

[Mr. Reindeer]

What's the 'official' response been like John 'WIP' Thorne seems positive. What about Brad Dukes (who didn't like FWWM)?

Seems like Brad hasn't commented on here since a couple days before the new series began.

Maybe he's in mourning?

Not to get too meta, but the plight of the moderators on this forum is fascinating to me. Law of averages, and especially given how uncompromisingly challenging (feel free to substitute your word of choice ) this season has been, I sort of assume that at least one of them will end up absolutely hating the new show.

[BOB1]

just as matter of interest, does anyone here seriously think that ''the return'' is worse than ep's 16 - 28 of series 2?

My answer has to go in two parts. First - I don't in any way know what "eps 16-28" means. Ep.16 is my second favourite of all and I prefer it to eps 17-28 and The Return taken together and multiplied
Second - I think The Return is perhaps better than eps 17-28, while I personally prefer the old Twin Peaks. Unlike mlsstwrt I don't find it awful at all, I like it a lot, the only things I really don't like is Little Nicky and Nadine at high school (but the later moments when she starts going out with Mike I find rather nice). Evelyn Marsh sort of sucks but I have a soft spot for this totally useless subplot, I definitely love Ben's civil war and the other thing I like a whole lot is Thomas Eckhardt and Josie in the knob While the Widnom/Annie thing is very far from the excellence of the 'who killed Laura Palmer' mystery which drove the first 16 episodes, it still is OK for me.
Now I think that 'objectively' these episodes are rather weak, it's just that I like them and they are soooo 'mine'.
The Return is not mine and I can appreciate some aspects (and criticize others) and that's about all.