Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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yaxomoxay
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:31 am

RedRum wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
RedRum wrote:So Twin Peaks appealed to people from all walks of life and it was ground breaking


I don't think that this will happen again. Successful shows that also include some artistic element are very specialized nowadays. Yes, you can have your CSI but if you look at anything even slightly deeper than your typical crime drama it's all going into very small playing fields. And TP carries a very heavy baggage with it.



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I disagree..

Look at Series that were directly influenced by Twin peaks that are infinity better than season three...

The Killing
Northern Exposure
Top of the Lake
Wayward Pines

Non of the above could out TP season one or two... but Season Three they have it hands down!


Again, they are very specialized with the very big advantage of not having baggage behind them. Northern Exposure is probably the better known among them, but even that it won't appeal to the same amount of people that TP did.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Hockey Mask » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:32 am

RedRum wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
RedRum wrote:So Twin Peaks appealed to people from all walks of life and it was ground breaking


I don't think that this will happen again. Successful shows that also include some artistic element are very specialized nowadays. Yes, you can have your CSI but if you look at anything even slightly deeper than your typical crime drama it's all going into very small playing fields. And TP carries a very heavy baggage with it.



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I disagree..

Look at Series that were directly influenced by Twin peaks that are infinity better than season three...

The Killing
Northern Exposure
Top of the Lake
Wayward Pines

Non of the above could out TP season one or two... but Season Three they have it hands down!

You need to revisit Ep. 8.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby RedRum » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:35 am

yaxomoxay wrote:
RedRum wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
I don't think that this will happen again. Successful shows that also include some artistic element are very specialized nowadays. Yes, you can have your CSI but if you look at anything even slightly deeper than your typical crime drama it's all going into very small playing fields. And TP carries a very heavy baggage with it.



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I disagree..

Look at Series that were directly influenced by Twin peaks that are infinity better than season three...

The Killing
Northern Exposure
Top of the Lake
Wayward Pines

Non of the above could out TP season one or two... but Season Three they have it hands down!


Again, they are very specialized with the very big advantage of not having baggage behind them. Northern Exposure is probably the better known among them, but even that it won't appeal to the same amount of people that TP did.


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What you call Baggage I call a Richness of Material that one could easily expand upon in a Linear Fashion. Materiel people loved and wanted more of.. which seems to escape many was the point of a return.

Watching season three its totally understandable to me now the outbursts of emotion form Sheryln Fenn about what the hell was happening.

Not take and pick apart and throw at a wall in a kind of video jackson pollock and expect everyone to go.. ah yes that's perfect thank you.

Hockey Mask wrote:You need to revisit Ep. 8.


Review the above lol :)
Last edited by RedRum on Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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yaxomoxay
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:37 am

RedRum wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
RedRum wrote:
I disagree..

Look at Series that were directly influenced by Twin peaks that are infinity better than season three...

The Killing
Northern Exposure
Top of the Lake
Wayward Pines

Non of the above could out TP season one or two... but Season Three they have it hands down!


Again, they are very specialized with the very big advantage of not having baggage behind them. Northern Exposure is probably the better known among them, but even that it won't appeal to the same amount of people that TP did.


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What you call Baggage I call a Richness of Material that one could easily expand upon in a Linear Fashion.

Not take and pick appart and throw at a wall in a kind of video jackson pollock and expect everyone to go.. ah yes thats perfect thank you.


Well the Richness of Material is a two edged word. You would agree with that. Many series have so much good material, but it takes a second to jump the shark in a way that is unanimously recognized, leading to the show's death.
Remember also that S2 was unable to capitalize on such Richness of Material.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:37 am

I fell behind a few episodes after Part 9, so haven't visited this board in a while. I caught up over the last week plus and watched Part 14 last night. Man, my feelings for this show vary minute by minute as I think about it, but they do trend towards the negative, which is why I'm still in the "disappointed" camp. The show has many interesting themes running through it, and I appreciate that Lynch is keeping his audience off balance, but every good element and moment feels like it's balanced out with something that's clunky. I can't help but think that while this show is unique, that even in its uniqueness, it could have been better. It could have had all its current elements and been better photographed, had better special effects, more care taken with some scenes during filming and editing, better acting at times, etc. People have made excuses the whole run for some of these elements, but why is it so hard to believe/admit that some things weren't intentional and could have been the product of a rushed production and editing process?

For example, take a look at the visit to "Jack Rabbit's Palace". It's something that has been promised since Part 9, and felt like it was going to be a convergence of several different elements (i.e., perhaps Evil Cooper arriving at the same time), or at least be pretty spooky. Instead, the scene had very little atmosphere, with the flat digital cinematography giving the woods an uninteresting look. Then the framing the whole way through was uninspired, as was the acting (especially by Ashbrook) and editing. The special effects spoke for themselves. It just didn't . . . work. It felt cheap, like very little care was given to it. Andy's view screen, with scenes from past episodes including the original series, also was poorly executed. That's just one example, but the series has been filled with similar moments, including Cole's dream in the same episode, where the photography and editing just didn't work, then the Sarah scene in the bar where the special effects would have been cheap looking twenty years ago.

While the show is working on a thematic level, I can't shake the feeling that it could be more . . . compelling. On a bare bones story level, I wouldn't choose to watch the story through lines that we're getting if I wasn't already predisposed to watch it. I'm very concerned that this show isn't going to resolve itself in any sort of interesting or cathartic way. Time on it is running short, and the "most main" plot points with Cooper may just have one more story beat. I'm not the only one who wanted Dougie gone and the "real" Coop back months ago (he really hasn't been in this show at all, as the Red Room Coop was a virtual mute too). It's pretty much a given that the real Coop won't be back until the finale, maybe not at all.

However . . . I believe Lynch is asking us to ask ourselves why that kind of comfort is important. As the series has stretched on, perhaps that's been what has come to the forefront, the challenge we're being given to let go of what we thought we wanted. Without question Lynch is dealing with the idea of time passing, with the concept of "25 years" used as sort of a generational or personal shift. Several characters are doing different things than we or they thought they would be 25 years ago: Bobby is a deputy, James a low-rent security guard, Jacoby is a rage-filled radical in the woods rather than chilling on a Hawaiian beach, Audrey is an old shrew in thrall to . . . someone, Sarah is some kind of monster, and Cooper is . . . well, you get the point. Lynch is tearing down the old comfort structures we're used to not just from "TP", but from conventional storytelling. We want to know what happened between Ed and Norma, but we don't get that. We don't have characters talking about themselves, their dreams, their internal lives, like in the original. Instead, people are behaving in a more "realistic" (Lynch-level realism) way. I get all that, but as I said, if all this were done in a more . . . compelling way, I think the show would be immeasurably better. It's hard to explain.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Aqwell » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:38 am

So the personal data, let's go...

I'm 42, my first lynchian experience was... a magazine cover with Sting and a press article about Dune in 1985. Later, maybe 1987 I saw Blue Velvet (a video rental), don't remember if I liked it or not, I was still a bit young to appreciate this one*. In 1990 I saw Dune (at last) on TV. In 1991 I read an article about Twin Peaks in the french magazine Mad Movies (it was already a phenomenon in the USA then). A few months later the series was broadcast on the 5th channel of the French TV network, and I managed to see the whole series (despite the fact my parents didn't like it, not so good TV reception and some change of schedules) thanks to my VCR.

The year after, I saw FWWM at the theater (twice), loved it. I don't remember when I saw Wild at Heart but it was my least favorite, today I like it. In 1997 during my student years I saw Lost Highway, again twice at the theater (absolutely loved it). And, to my shame, I totally missed Mulholland Drive in 2001 but bought the DVD right after. Loved it too, my favorite now, with Lost Highway.

Then comes Inland Empire... I was very happy going to the cinema to see a new Lynch film after so many years and... I fucking HATED it from the start! First (and last so far) time of my life that I left during a movie (I held it for almost 2 hours), but it was a sad parody of Lynch's work, far worse than The Return, a total nightmare. Later I tried to see the whole film in video... nope couldn't do it unless seeing it in parts. An awful piece of shit. :evil:

So I was a little worried for the Return but as many I thought Mark Frost will contain Lynch's wild mind... and we know how it turned out. Shite. :(

PS: as others here, I try to rewatch the entire series once a year, usually during summer (last year was the 3rd time).

*Remember seeing Blue Velvet with my mother... awkward... :lol:
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Trudy Chelgren » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:39 am

RedRum wrote:
Look at Series that were directly influenced by Twin peaks that are infinity better than season three...

The Killing
Northern Exposure
Top of the Lake
Wayward Pines


I couldn't make it through the first episode of Wayward Pines. To me, an utterly cringe-worthy patchwork of blatantly stolen ideas. Mostly stolen from the same source. I actually felt humiliated for Shyamalan watching it. I can definitely see why you would prefer it to The Return; more tonally even, more in line with original premise of Twin Peaks. If there's one thing I feel is universal about The Return is it's inventiveness. Whether you feel all these ideas gel or sit well with one another is another matter, but I've never seen a show quite like this. For good or bad. I think that's worth something.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:42 am

This thread is increasingly becoming like an AA meeting.
"Hello, my name is X. First time I watched TP was..."

I love it!!! ;)


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby RedRum » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:44 am

yaxomoxay wrote:
Well the Richness of Material is a two edged word. You would agree with that. Many series have so much good material, but it takes a second to jump the shark in a way that is unanimously recognized, leading to the show's death.
Remember also that S2 was unable to capitalize on such Richness of Material.


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Again I totally disagree with you, and I'm not for the sake of it.

I loved Season two, it wasn't as good as season one but I think it took what they were doing a template if you will and placed it on what would happen after the discovery of Laura's Murderer.

Which is what they should have done in Season three... taken that template and placed it over what would have happened to the peoples lives in Twin Peaks 25 years later..

Its not even like it would have been hard to pick up, there was so much of a ramp with so many questions that needed answering.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:46 am

referendum wrote:
This is a bottomless and constantly expanding work and Lynch's presence is, imo, a huge part of that.


yes but don't you think there is a point where it becomes ' alfred hitchcock presents' rather than a world you can get lost in ( aka the twilight zone)


I know what you're saying but I'm very interested in form and less so in the actual plot, as far as getting lost in things, so I feel very immersed in this world. That said, every component is combining for me in a way that washes over me and gets me analytical at the same time. It's a very strange concoction.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:47 am

We don't have characters talking about themselves, their dreams, their internal lives, like in the original. Instead, people are behaving in a more "realistic" (Lynch-level realism) way. I get all that, but as I said, if all this were done in a more . . . compelling way, I think the show would be immeasurably better. It's hard to explain.


i feel your pain
[edit] @latereg
interested in form and less so in the actual plot, as far as getting lost in things, so I feel very immersed in this world. That said, every component is combining for me in a way that washes over me and gets me analytical at the same time. It's a very strange concoction


yes
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Snailhead » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:50 am

Regarding the Sarah Palmer scene in part 14 - I don't think we should assume that Mrs Palmer has always had that evil inside of her. When she said "something happened to me" in part 12, I interpreted it as something bad has happened to her recently that resulted in this possession or whatever is going on with her. Love or hate the neck biting scene (which was a personal highlight for me) , I don't think it necessarily retroactively changes the character. Worst case scenario, even if it turns out that she always had some kind of evil seed inside? I still don't think it takes away from the emotion of the Palmer storyline from S1, S2, and FWWM.

If we look at the original series, our perception of the characters was always shifting. Cooper in the pilot had a different personality to Coop in most of S1 and S2. Donna went through a big transformation between episode 7 and 8 (which I know is something many didn't enjoy, myself included). Leland. Albert mellows out. Doc Hayward violently attacks Ben. Audrey loses her edge and becomes an aspiring business woman. etc etc. A lot of these changes didn't turn out so great, but in a lot of cases they emphasized the strength of the earlier depictions by providing a contrast. So as a consolation for those who feel certain characters are being 'ruined' - I hope that you find when you revisit the older material that it makes those scenes even better. When I watch Audrey's scenes in S1, the knowledge of her boring scenes in S2 make me love the S1 stuff even more.

As far as the goofy English dude making British viewers cringe? There is certainly a precedent for that in the original. As a Canadian, I was immediately struck by how the French-Canadian accents of the Renault brothers are totally inconsistent with one another and often hilariously bad! But that added to the fun of it.

A few pages back, there is great post that sums up my biggest gripe with S3:

waferwhitemilk wrote:Re: the dreaminess of it all, one thing I liked about 'Inland Empire' was this idea of a bottomless dream, which btw I also agree with on a philosophical level, and to me the succesful thing about that experiment was exactly that it didn't make a lot of sense, every scene just followed the other without trying to. The original 'Twin Peaks' off course was a lot more conventional with a narrative that veered into the absurd here and there but that on a basic level made sense. That also worked great and was a succes. Now for 'The Return' it's mostly the senseless dream vibe we're getting, but this is then mixed with these -imo- very clunky explanatory dialogue where they suddenly act as if it's a conventional narrative where there's a plot that actually matters! This to me is a less succesful mix, and I'd go as far as saying it's the worst of both worlds: a plot that doesn't work because of the senseless dreamquality of it all and a dream that doesn't work because it keeps getting interrupted by a clunky plot. And i'd go even further and say that the middleground between a conventional narrative on the one hand and an experimental dream on the other often seems to be -to me at least- a clunky trolley vibe.


While I disagree with the concluding statement (good or bad I don't think we're being trolled by the creators), it's the intermittent clunky exposition that keeps popping up in between the dreamy scenes that makes it feel so uneven to me. It doesn't always fall flat, and some of the exposition scenes are fine, but from my perspective it's the worst thing about The Return (aside from my conflicted and fluctuating feelings about the Las Vegas stuff).

Regarding the special effects - yeah a lot of them aren't great. I don't know I feel about them. But, again, there is a precedent. Image
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby RedRum » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:51 am

Trudy Chelgren wrote:
RedRum wrote:
Look at Series that were directly influenced by Twin peaks that are infinity better than season three...

The Killing
Northern Exposure
Top of the Lake
Wayward Pines


I couldn't make it through the first episode of Wayward Pines. To me, an utterly cringe-worthy patchwork of blatantly stolen ideas. Mostly stolen from the same source. I actually felt humiliated for Shyamalan watching it. I can definitely see why you would prefer it to The Return; more tonally even, more in line with original premise of Twin Peaks. If there's one thing I feel is universal about The Return is it's inventiveness. Whether you feel all these ideas gel or sit well with one another is another matter, but I've never seen a show quite like this. For good or bad. I think that's worth something.


Season Three is like a David Lynch Sketch show.... I might like that if it wasn't using my most favourite material in the world to poke holes into.

I highly recommend The Killing - The American Remake.... its mood and character flaws are nigh on perfect...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:53 am

I am an original fan. I was 24 when the show first aired, and I worked at a coffee shop in San Francisco, where we were all Twin Peaks fans and discussed the show every day while making lattes and cappuccinos. I was also one of those strange birds who liked FWWM on the first viewing (though I did miss the sense of quirky humor that was largely missing in the second half of the film).

I doubt there is any grand correlation on any one variable (original viewer, new viewer) that one could use to figure out who likes the show vs. who doesn't. I do wonder, though, if fans who decided to have a Twin Peaks party and invite all their friends may have had a more difficult time in watching the show. Since it is a very specialized show to a specialized audience (fans of the original and the movie) watching with someone not really prepared for what they were about to see could have negative consequences. We are all susceptible to the influence of others, and having a friend say over and over, 'This sucks, I don't understand anything that's going on' could put one in a negative mindset.

(I actually had this happen to me once. A movie which was actually a pretty good film for its genre was ruined for me by a friend who kept repeating, 'this sucks, this is awful').
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:54 am

Snailhead wrote:Regarding the special effects - yeah a lot of them aren't great. I don't know I feel about them. But, again, there is a precedent.


Well come on, that's hardly an apt comparison.
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